4 ms·

>I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women. I'm a man and I do none of this, even in a "very male

>I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women. I'm a man and I do none of this, even in a "very male environment."

zimablue 8y ago
Well that's fair enough but in some cultures it's fairly common. I am not a big bro guy but I've definitely discussed women with male friends/colleagues. I don't think it's super demeaning or immoral to discuss girls that you like, it's just getting very taboo in parts of Western culture when done by men. Sex dynamics are like at the core of society it's all still happening whether you're speed to discuss it or not.
- detaro 8y ago
  There's also a difference between "talking about women" and the things described in the article (and a lot of different ways of talking about women, which can be done without degrading language). Calling a coworker a "Ho" or complaining they'd not be willing to share a hotel room with an unknown man is not the same level as "they didn't like that we talk about women".
  - zimablue 8y ago
    I think the Ho thing was clearly an attempt at humor, and an attempt to "bring her in" to the group. It's like an old job where I was called a coal miner (being the only guy from north England). It's a nice thing, you're taking stick but that's how male groups normally bond. Instead of taking the humor as it's intended she takes offense, and what's really happening is that instead of submitting to their culture and joining the group within it, she's trying to impose her own external culture to the group and not joining it. Being able to live your life always refusing to step outside your own culture is in itself kind of a form of privilege. In another, wealthier-born life I'd never have worked for most of my companies and spent my whole life chilling with academics that I naturally resonate with. I could have quit when I got friendly insults or had to join in the drinking culture and written angry articles about it but I'm not sure that would make me worthy of respect. The bit about hotel room with a random man is a bit nuts but I think her relationship with the guy had just degraded as he saw her as a SJW and he was trying (mistakenly) to take an opportunity to hit her with what he saw as her own arguments.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      The trouble with this sort of thing is that it's all "friendly" up until, and sometimes past, the rape attempts.
    - trowawee 8y ago
      There's an enormous gap between calling someone a sex worker and calling them a coal miner. There's an even-more-enormous gap between calling most of your team "bros" and calling the one woman on your team a sex worker. That is not in-group bonding, that's targeted, gender-based harassment.
      - zimablue 8y ago
        Ho isn't used in the West as a pejorative, almost ever. It's far more often used playfully, and often by women themselves. Only a very offended culture would cause you to take it seriously. And honestly, Coal Mining is a job with like social status zero and sex work status -1. My dad actually was a coal miner and it wasn't great. Even if you mindlessly take it literally it's not that far off.
        beart 8y ago
        > Ho isn't used in the West as a pejorative, almost ever. I live in 'The West' and I refute this claim, regardless of how it was used in this specific context.
        dragonwriter 8y ago
        > Ho isn't used in the West as a pejorative, almost ever. Yes, it is. Most often, IME, with a derogatory label indicating lack of intelligence alongside it, but even by itself it is.
        taurath 8y ago
        May I submit as evidence against that assertion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoPFkjF-Bdo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoPFkjF-Bdo You don't get that reaction if its not a pejorative.
      - 8y ago

>I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women. I'm a man and I do none of this, even in a "very male environment."

zimablue 8y ago

Well that's fair enough but in some cultures it's fairly common. I am not a big bro guy but I've definitely discussed women with male friends/colleagues. I don't think it's super demeaning or immoral to discuss girls that you like, it's just getting very taboo in parts of Western culture when done by men. Sex dynamics are like at the core of society it's all still happening whether you're speed to discuss it or not.

detaro 8y ago
There's also a difference between "talking about women" and the things described in the article (and a lot of different ways of talking about women, which can be done without degrading language). Calling a coworker a "Ho" or complaining they'd not be willing to share a hotel room with an unknown man is not the same level as "they didn't like that we talk about women".
- zimablue 8y ago
  I think the Ho thing was clearly an attempt at humor, and an attempt to "bring her in" to the group. It's like an old job where I was called a coal miner (being the only guy from north England). It's a nice thing, you're taking stick but that's how male groups normally bond. Instead of taking the humor as it's intended she takes offense, and what's really happening is that instead of submitting to their culture and joining the group within it, she's trying to impose her own external culture to the group and not joining it. Being able to live your life always refusing to step outside your own culture is in itself kind of a form of privilege. In another, wealthier-born life I'd never have worked for most of my companies and spent my whole life chilling with academics that I naturally resonate with. I could have quit when I got friendly insults or had to join in the drinking culture and written angry articles about it but I'm not sure that would make me worthy of respect. The bit about hotel room with a random man is a bit nuts but I think her relationship with the guy had just degraded as he saw her as a SJW and he was trying (mistakenly) to take an opportunity to hit her with what he saw as her own arguments.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    The trouble with this sort of thing is that it's all "friendly" up until, and sometimes past, the rape attempts.
  - trowawee 8y ago
    There's an enormous gap between calling someone a sex worker and calling them a coal miner. There's an even-more-enormous gap between calling most of your team "bros" and calling the one woman on your team a sex worker. That is not in-group bonding, that's targeted, gender-based harassment.
    - zimablue 8y ago
      Ho isn't used in the West as a pejorative, almost ever. It's far more often used playfully, and often by women themselves. Only a very offended culture would cause you to take it seriously. And honestly, Coal Mining is a job with like social status zero and sex work status -1. My dad actually was a coal miner and it wasn't great. Even if you mindlessly take it literally it's not that far off.
      - beart 8y ago
        > Ho isn't used in the West as a pejorative, almost ever. I live in 'The West' and I refute this claim, regardless of how it was used in this specific context.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > Ho isn't used in the West as a pejorative, almost ever. Yes, it is. Most often, IME, with a derogatory label indicating lack of intelligence alongside it, but even by itself it is.
      - taurath 8y ago
        May I submit as evidence against that assertion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoPFkjF-Bdo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoPFkjF-Bdo You don't get that reaction if its not a pejorative.
    - 8y ago