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Looking at this skeptically, given that as she says she put a target on her own back there's not much concrete here about problems she personally faced. Compan

Looking at this skeptically, given that as she says she put a target on her own back there's not much concrete here about problems she personally faced. Companies have a culture, it might not be your culture, and it's mental to expect to be able to walk in and attack it in the first six months then everything be sweetness and joy. Joining a gaming company and complaining about female outfits is roughly equivalent to joining the NRA hierarchy and then in your first six months standing up at the AGM shouting about restricting assault rifles. Asking people about their sex life is dangerous territory but depending on the context people have conversations about that at work. It's probably the worst thing in this article I think and worth a HR complaint. Other than that it's almost all "I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women." Well yeah, if I joined the NRA they'd be discussing hunting and stuff I don't care about or even find offensive but it's kind of expected. You can argue that every single company should have an extremely corporate/restricted culture when any talk about the opposing sex is banned, the upside is that people would have less opportunity to be offended, the downside is that you've just substituted a system of state police where people play very Machiavellian games with HR and don't see each-other as humans because the way that they can interact is extremely restricted. I'm sure if I joined a small enough female-dominated company I could feel really uncomfortable with the conversation topics, and the way that men were talked about. I could then pin my colours to the mast in some way (it's a company making vegan stuff and I stand up and extol meat eating), get quietly ostracised and instead of being horrified by aggression and blunt social nuances, be horrified by gossip and social politicking. Maybe everything should be completely corporatified but I just find the idea deeply depressing.

glassesman 8y ago
>I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women. I'm a man and I do none of this, even in a "very male environment."
- zimablue 8y ago
  Well that's fair enough but in some cultures it's fairly common. I am not a big bro guy but I've definitely discussed women with male friends/colleagues. I don't think it's super demeaning or immoral to discuss girls that you like, it's just getting very taboo in parts of Western culture when done by men. Sex dynamics are like at the core of society it's all still happening whether you're speed to discuss it or not.
  - detaro 8y ago
    There's also a difference between "talking about women" and the things described in the article (and a lot of different ways of talking about women, which can be done without degrading language). Calling a coworker a "Ho" or complaining they'd not be willing to share a hotel room with an unknown man is not the same level as "they didn't like that we talk about women".
    - zimablue 8y ago
      I think the Ho thing was clearly an attempt at humor, and an attempt to "bring her in" to the group. It's like an old job where I was called a coal miner (being the only guy from north England). It's a nice thing, you're taking stick but that's how male groups normally bond. Instead of taking the humor as it's intended she takes offense, and what's really happening is that instead of submitting to their culture and joining the group within it, she's trying to impose her own external culture to the group and not joining it. Being able to live your life always refusing to step outside your own culture is in itself kind of a form of privilege. In another, wealthier-born life I'd never have worked for most of my companies and spent my whole life chilling with academics that I naturally resonate with. I could have quit when I got friendly insults or had to join in the drinking culture and written angry articles about it but I'm not sure that would make me worthy of respect. The bit about hotel room with a random man is a bit nuts but I think her relationship with the guy had just degraded as he saw her as a SJW and he was trying (mistakenly) to take an opportunity to hit her with what he saw as her own arguments.
      - pjc50 8y ago
almostCEO 8y ago
I am sorry to see your comment in gray. I was heavily downvoted as well, but I share your views fully. The counter-example of a female-dominated environment is food for thought. At work, I just avoid women altogether and go for lunch with guys so I can say almost anything without offending anyone.
- pmyteh 8y ago
  I've worked in female-dominated environments (I used to be a copy-typist). They were fine. No passive-aggressive anti-male comments, no questions about my sex life, no harassment. The conversation topics were about more stereotypically female topics than in other places I've worked, but I was made to feel very welcome. I'm sure there are toxic women-only work environments (humans are great at making anything toxic) but it is absolutely possible to have a gender imbalance in a workplace without it being obnoxious.
- sctb 8y ago
  Regardless of your views, please start posting civilly and substantively (that you avoid women is not something that we benefit intellectually from learning) or we'll ban the account. This site is not here as an ideological arena. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
detaro 8y ago
And if in that women-dominated environment they targeted you with degrading comments or sexual harassment that would be just as bad, what's that comparison supposed to tell us? (and doing the same to men in a male-oriented environment isn't ok either if they aren't ok with it)
- zimablue 8y ago
  But she doesn't say that she had a lot of degrading comments, that's what my original post said. Her manager had an off joke about bros and a ho and someone once asked her about her sex life. Yeah that's not great but it's world-ending. Most of her article isn't about that, it's complaints about other people, speaking to eachother.
ck425 8y ago
> "I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women." Enough with the boys will be boys angle. That behavior doesn't have to be the default male behavior. It shouldn't be the default male behavior. Enough is enough, that's not ok anymore. And we men need start calling each other out on it.
- zimablue 8y ago
  Why shouldn't it be the default male group behavior (for some ages and environments) to discuss women? Is it that trying to sleep with women is immoral or that considering their looks is immoral or that discussing it is immoral? I guess the core way I disagree with modern culture is that there's this idea that women are either viewed as objects or as humans. It's kind of obvious that they're both, if you say that women are absolutely not sexual objects or to be seen as such then OK but you've blinded yourself to 50% of how the world unavoidably works. You can and should view women BOTH as objects and humans, and everyone is capable of doing so. I don't think objectification is the offense, I think dehumanisation is and they're not the same thing.
  - Djvacto 8y ago
    None of the ways in which women were discussed was respectful. That's the difference. You're talking about hypothetical respectful objectification, which just isn't a thing.
    - zimablue 8y ago
      It's only not a thing because you've defined it as such. You can make the rule that "commenting on a girl's looks or whether you could get with them is disrespectful" and then the loophole is closed, but my argument is that that's not a truthful or helpful way to organize the world.
  - camel_Snake 8y ago
    > You can and should view women BOTH as objects and humans But did the company demonstrate this at all? I only read about objectification. If they truly saw women as humans as well they wouldn't have laughed off her suggestion that some of the female characters in the game could be anything other than a sex object.
wild_preference 8y ago
My older brother settled down in the suburbs and picks up work as a substitute teacher in a school with female-dominated staff. He’s a handsome guy. Every time I see him, he tells me the latest story of a teacher or fellow staffmember making a crude sexual joke or coming on to him. All of these being mostly middle-aged women. We have a chuckle. It’s interesting how men generally don’t “whistleblow” on those sorts of scenarios. Yet only men ever get nailed with “ugh, pigs!” as if women never have open sexual thoughts.
- trowawee 8y ago
  It's almost like...there's some sort of gendered power imbalance in society? That might make men comfortable disregarding this? But that might not afford women the same privilege?
  - zimablue 8y ago
    There are a million power imbalances in society and gender isn't close to the most important, it's just the most discussed. The real wage gap when you control for time worked and job choice is tiny. Ask yourself this - would you consider your child more lucky to be an ugly, short boy or a pretty girl? Or a boy and you have 20k a year to bring him up vs a girl and you have 50? Walking around furious as a good looking middle class woman that you're incredibly disadvantaged is basically a religious status. But instead of being offended by very specific insults or assumptions you're offended by everything.
    - danShumway 8y ago
      > "A senior staff member proceeded to repeatedly call me sexist for not being willing to room with a man I’d never met before. At first, I thought he was kidding, but he continued to make arguments to his point. I explained why I would be more comfortable sharing a room with another woman, and told him I wasn’t enjoying the conversation and would leave if I was continued to be called sexist. The conversation continued, with him eventually saying that my unwillingness to room with a man was the same as not hiring a woman due to her gender." You're not arguing in good faith right now. The above scenario isn't a joke - it's harassment. No matter who it was done to; any gender in any context, it would be harassment. You're phrasing this like it was a few offhand comments; as a man, if any of the stuff in this article had happened to me, regardless of whether it had been a male or female doing it, I would have been appalled. I would be having the exact same reaction. To talk about experiences like this as if they just boil down to political correctness requires a kind of willful ignorance.

glassesman 8y ago

>I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women. I'm a man and I do none of this, even in a "very male environment."

zimablue 8y ago
Well that's fair enough but in some cultures it's fairly common. I am not a big bro guy but I've definitely discussed women with male friends/colleagues. I don't think it's super demeaning or immoral to discuss girls that you like, it's just getting very taboo in parts of Western culture when done by men. Sex dynamics are like at the core of society it's all still happening whether you're speed to discuss it or not.
- detaro 8y ago
  There's also a difference between "talking about women" and the things described in the article (and a lot of different ways of talking about women, which can be done without degrading language). Calling a coworker a "Ho" or complaining they'd not be willing to share a hotel room with an unknown man is not the same level as "they didn't like that we talk about women".
  - zimablue 8y ago
    I think the Ho thing was clearly an attempt at humor, and an attempt to "bring her in" to the group. It's like an old job where I was called a coal miner (being the only guy from north England). It's a nice thing, you're taking stick but that's how male groups normally bond. Instead of taking the humor as it's intended she takes offense, and what's really happening is that instead of submitting to their culture and joining the group within it, she's trying to impose her own external culture to the group and not joining it. Being able to live your life always refusing to step outside your own culture is in itself kind of a form of privilege. In another, wealthier-born life I'd never have worked for most of my companies and spent my whole life chilling with academics that I naturally resonate with. I could have quit when I got friendly insults or had to join in the drinking culture and written angry articles about it but I'm not sure that would make me worthy of respect. The bit about hotel room with a random man is a bit nuts but I think her relationship with the guy had just degraded as he saw her as a SJW and he was trying (mistakenly) to take an opportunity to hit her with what he saw as her own arguments.
    - pjc50 8y ago

almostCEO 8y ago

I am sorry to see your comment in gray. I was heavily downvoted as well, but I share your views fully. The counter-example of a female-dominated environment is food for thought. At work, I just avoid women altogether and go for lunch with guys so I can say almost anything without offending anyone.

pmyteh 8y ago
I've worked in female-dominated environments (I used to be a copy-typist). They were fine. No passive-aggressive anti-male comments, no questions about my sex life, no harassment. The conversation topics were about more stereotypically female topics than in other places I've worked, but I was made to feel very welcome. I'm sure there are toxic women-only work environments (humans are great at making anything toxic) but it is absolutely possible to have a gender imbalance in a workplace without it being obnoxious.
sctb 8y ago
Regardless of your views, please start posting civilly and substantively (that you avoid women is not something that we benefit intellectually from learning) or we'll ban the account. This site is not here as an ideological arena. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

detaro 8y ago

And if in that women-dominated environment they targeted you with degrading comments or sexual harassment that would be just as bad, what's that comparison supposed to tell us? (and doing the same to men in a male-oriented environment isn't ok either if they aren't ok with it)

zimablue 8y ago
But she doesn't say that she had a lot of degrading comments, that's what my original post said. Her manager had an off joke about bros and a ho and someone once asked her about her sex life. Yeah that's not great but it's world-ending. Most of her article isn't about that, it's complaints about other people, speaking to eachother.

ck425 8y ago

> "I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women." Enough with the boys will be boys angle. That behavior doesn't have to be the default male behavior. It shouldn't be the default male behavior. Enough is enough, that's not ok anymore. And we men need start calling each other out on it.

zimablue 8y ago
Why shouldn't it be the default male group behavior (for some ages and environments) to discuss women? Is it that trying to sleep with women is immoral or that considering their looks is immoral or that discussing it is immoral? I guess the core way I disagree with modern culture is that there's this idea that women are either viewed as objects or as humans. It's kind of obvious that they're both, if you say that women are absolutely not sexual objects or to be seen as such then OK but you've blinded yourself to 50% of how the world unavoidably works. You can and should view women BOTH as objects and humans, and everyone is capable of doing so. I don't think objectification is the offense, I think dehumanisation is and they're not the same thing.
- Djvacto 8y ago
  None of the ways in which women were discussed was respectful. That's the difference. You're talking about hypothetical respectful objectification, which just isn't a thing.
  - zimablue 8y ago
    It's only not a thing because you've defined it as such. You can make the rule that "commenting on a girl's looks or whether you could get with them is disrespectful" and then the loophole is closed, but my argument is that that's not a truthful or helpful way to organize the world.
- camel_Snake 8y ago
  > You can and should view women BOTH as objects and humans But did the company demonstrate this at all? I only read about objectification. If they truly saw women as humans as well they wouldn't have laughed off her suggestion that some of the female characters in the game could be anything other than a sex object.

wild_preference 8y ago

My older brother settled down in the suburbs and picks up work as a substitute teacher in a school with female-dominated staff. He’s a handsome guy. Every time I see him, he tells me the latest story of a teacher or fellow staffmember making a crude sexual joke or coming on to him. All of these being mostly middle-aged women. We have a chuckle. It’s interesting how men generally don’t “whistleblow” on those sorts of scenarios. Yet only men ever get nailed with “ugh, pigs!” as if women never have open sexual thoughts.

trowawee 8y ago
It's almost like...there's some sort of gendered power imbalance in society? That might make men comfortable disregarding this? But that might not afford women the same privilege?
- zimablue 8y ago
  There are a million power imbalances in society and gender isn't close to the most important, it's just the most discussed. The real wage gap when you control for time worked and job choice is tiny. Ask yourself this - would you consider your child more lucky to be an ugly, short boy or a pretty girl? Or a boy and you have 20k a year to bring him up vs a girl and you have 50? Walking around furious as a good looking middle class woman that you're incredibly disadvantaged is basically a religious status. But instead of being offended by very specific insults or assumptions you're offended by everything.
  - danShumway 8y ago
    > "A senior staff member proceeded to repeatedly call me sexist for not being willing to room with a man I’d never met before. At first, I thought he was kidding, but he continued to make arguments to his point. I explained why I would be more comfortable sharing a room with another woman, and told him I wasn’t enjoying the conversation and would leave if I was continued to be called sexist. The conversation continued, with him eventually saying that my unwillingness to room with a man was the same as not hiring a woman due to her gender." You're not arguing in good faith right now. The above scenario isn't a joke - it's harassment. No matter who it was done to; any gender in any context, it would be harassment. You're phrasing this like it was a few offhand comments; as a man, if any of the stuff in this article had happened to me, regardless of whether it had been a male or female doing it, I would have been appalled. I would be having the exact same reaction. To talk about experiences like this as if they just boil down to political correctness requires a kind of willful ignorance.