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The problem is that the value of an API is in the fact that it is open as in open, not "open" like "open banking". An API that can only be accessed by a few hu

The problem is that the value of an API is in the fact that it is open as in open, not "open" like "open banking". An API that can only be accessed by a few huge players is next to useless. Those guys have already figured out a workaround for the lack of APIs, mainly screen-scraping. However the real innovation comes from small startups, sometimes originating from a one-man side-project - this "open" banking completely forgets that. And finally, my problem is that it does not even allow access to your own account. Let's forget about accessing other accounts for a second - I just want to do whatever I want with my own account.

close04 8y ago
Maybe the problem arises from this different interpretation for "open" that different people have. Look, the Linux source code is open. But doing something meaningful with it takes a huge effort. A one man team can't build Android out of Linux. This doesn't make it less open. The bar is higher because those companies will literally have access to to all of you financial information and your money. And not just yours, but of all the customers of all the banks. There simply must be some framework in place that sets clear regulation as to what and how things will be done. Otherwise you're flirting with disaster. Lack of proper bank supervision is what triggered the last financial crisis. You think a 3rd party will fare better if left to their devices? All the responsibility the bank has towards you, the client, should be mirrored to the 3rd party. You have high expectations of the bank, why would you accept less from the middle man? As for the "do what I want with my own account", you can to a degree. All banks provide you with internet banking, an app, a website, a person behind a desk. You have access to all of your data, just not how you want it. And the how is sensitive enough to require regulation. P.S. The requirements are in no way unachievable for a small startup. It takes a bit of effort, I agree. But if those requirements are what stop you then you're in the wrong business. The bar in fintech is set a bit higher than other industries as it should be.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  > just not how you want it Which is a big deal in 2018 and the era of open data, data portability (even Facebook offers data exports). Why don't banks offer data exports?
  - close04 8y ago
    It's mostly because your Facebook account doesn't have a balance :). On the other hand I'm not sure what data you need exported and can't. A bank data export is the monthly bank statement. Most banks allow you to to export every transaction going back some years from the app or website. Going further back you can address the bank and they will provide you with such an export going as far back as the local laws mandate. You're going to have some issues getting realtime access and this is the how I was referring to. Pretty sure Facebook doesn't help you with this either.
    - Rjevski 8y ago
      Honestly? My Facebook data (back when I had one) contains way more valuable data than my bank statement. Well let me give you a real example - my personal bank account is Monzo so there is an API and webhooks and all is well. My business account doesn't yet have an API (it's Starling Bank - a modern bank so they're planning to have one that gives out personal access tokens without needing to be an AISP). I have accounting software (FreeAgent) that has an API. I want to make it so that every time I use the business bank card it creates a new expense (and if it's things I expect - food deliveries, etc - automatically look up the receipt in my inbox and attach it to the expense entry in the accounting software). Same thing for incoming payments - if I receive an incoming payment with a non-blank reference, look through the invoices to see if any of the references match, if so, mark it as paid and send a thank you email to the client. Am I really asking for too much?
      - close04 8y ago
        Honestly. [1] Make it $500. $1000. Unless you put the next winning lottery numbers in there, your data isn't that valuable. And in case you are wondering some data is heavily regulated anyway. But you keep moving the goalposts, you complain about something, it turns into a non-issue, then move to something else. First it was that you don't have access to your data, then it turned into web banking only providing 3 years of the data you don't have access to (?), then it was back to no access to data. For my last reply I'll rehash it: a) you do have access to all your data just not how you want it: you want access via a generic interface of your choosing so that you may process it somehow. They provide access via their proprietary interface making the processing more cumbersome. b) smaller banks will offer APIs for individual use because it's cheaper for them and want to attract customers, larger banks don't because it's expensive, riskier, and they already have the customers. c') your bank offers you the API because you are its customer and they have control. They do not offer that access to a random 3rd party in bulk because that third party is not their customer and they lose control (in the bad way). d) no bank really wants to offer bulk access to APIs when the regulation sets a low bar because it's very risky and they are taking most of the risk. Hence the regulation: you get access to the APIs if you meet some criteria. Real world example? I want to be Bank of close04 but although I have a hand calculator and a pretty good hiding spot for money they still set the bar slightly too high. [2] Now sit on it, think it through and let me know why a bank holding your money would be treated any differently from a 3rd party that can perform close to any operation with that money. And why your earlier statement that "people should be free to [...]" doesn't make sense in the context of current day reality. People's misery tends to turn into misery for the state. Which is why the state is regulating stuff. The more sensitive the topic, the higher the bar. Money is sensitive. P.S. The argument that the bar for open banking is set high is to discourage competition and keep power in the hands of the banks is total BS, visible from afar. There will be dozens and dozens of 3rd parties more than able to fill the role. It could be "Amazon Financial Services", it could be one of the banks, it could be a 2 man startup with moderate financing. Literally thousands of startups manage to raise over $10 million. [1] https://medium.com/wibson/how-much-is-your-data-worth-at-least-240-per-year-likely-much-more-984e250c2ffa https://medium.com/wibson/how-much-is-your-data-worth-at-lea... [2] https://www.offshorecompany.com/banking/start-a-bank/your-own/ https://www.offshorecompany.com/banking/start-a-bank/your-ow... [3] https://techcrunch.com/2016/08/26/co-founders-optional/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/08/26/co-founders-optional/

close04 8y ago

Maybe the problem arises from this different interpretation for "open" that different people have. Look, the Linux source code is open. But doing something meaningful with it takes a huge effort. A one man team can't build Android out of Linux. This doesn't make it less open. The bar is higher because those companies will literally have access to to all of you financial information and your money. And not just yours, but of all the customers of all the banks. There simply must be some framework in place that sets clear regulation as to what and how things will be done. Otherwise you're flirting with disaster. Lack of proper bank supervision is what triggered the last financial crisis. You think a 3rd party will fare better if left to their devices? All the responsibility the bank has towards you, the client, should be mirrored to the 3rd party. You have high expectations of the bank, why would you accept less from the middle man? As for the "do what I want with my own account", you can to a degree. All banks provide you with internet banking, an app, a website, a person behind a desk. You have access to all of your data, just not how you want it. And the how is sensitive enough to require regulation. P.S. The requirements are in no way unachievable for a small startup. It takes a bit of effort, I agree. But if those requirements are what stop you then you're in the wrong business. The bar in fintech is set a bit higher than other industries as it should be.

Rjevski 8y ago
> just not how you want it Which is a big deal in 2018 and the era of open data, data portability (even Facebook offers data exports). Why don't banks offer data exports?
- close04 8y ago
  It's mostly because your Facebook account doesn't have a balance :). On the other hand I'm not sure what data you need exported and can't. A bank data export is the monthly bank statement. Most banks allow you to to export every transaction going back some years from the app or website. Going further back you can address the bank and they will provide you with such an export going as far back as the local laws mandate. You're going to have some issues getting realtime access and this is the how I was referring to. Pretty sure Facebook doesn't help you with this either.
  - Rjevski 8y ago
    Honestly? My Facebook data (back when I had one) contains way more valuable data than my bank statement. Well let me give you a real example - my personal bank account is Monzo so there is an API and webhooks and all is well. My business account doesn't yet have an API (it's Starling Bank - a modern bank so they're planning to have one that gives out personal access tokens without needing to be an AISP). I have accounting software (FreeAgent) that has an API. I want to make it so that every time I use the business bank card it creates a new expense (and if it's things I expect - food deliveries, etc - automatically look up the receipt in my inbox and attach it to the expense entry in the accounting software). Same thing for incoming payments - if I receive an incoming payment with a non-blank reference, look through the invoices to see if any of the references match, if so, mark it as paid and send a thank you email to the client. Am I really asking for too much?
    - close04 8y ago
      Honestly. [1] Make it $500. $1000. Unless you put the next winning lottery numbers in there, your data isn't that valuable. And in case you are wondering some data is heavily regulated anyway. But you keep moving the goalposts, you complain about something, it turns into a non-issue, then move to something else. First it was that you don't have access to your data, then it turned into web banking only providing 3 years of the data you don't have access to (?), then it was back to no access to data. For my last reply I'll rehash it: a) you do have access to all your data just not how you want it: you want access via a generic interface of your choosing so that you may process it somehow. They provide access via their proprietary interface making the processing more cumbersome. b) smaller banks will offer APIs for individual use because it's cheaper for them and want to attract customers, larger banks don't because it's expensive, riskier, and they already have the customers. c') your bank offers you the API because you are its customer and they have control. They do not offer that access to a random 3rd party in bulk because that third party is not their customer and they lose control (in the bad way). d) no bank really wants to offer bulk access to APIs when the regulation sets a low bar because it's very risky and they are taking most of the risk. Hence the regulation: you get access to the APIs if you meet some criteria. Real world example? I want to be Bank of close04 but although I have a hand calculator and a pretty good hiding spot for money they still set the bar slightly too high. [2] Now sit on it, think it through and let me know why a bank holding your money would be treated any differently from a 3rd party that can perform close to any operation with that money. And why your earlier statement that "people should be free to [...]" doesn't make sense in the context of current day reality. People's misery tends to turn into misery for the state. Which is why the state is regulating stuff. The more sensitive the topic, the higher the bar. Money is sensitive. P.S. The argument that the bar for open banking is set high is to discourage competition and keep power in the hands of the banks is total BS, visible from afar. There will be dozens and dozens of 3rd parties more than able to fill the role. It could be "Amazon Financial Services", it could be one of the banks, it could be a 2 man startup with moderate financing. Literally thousands of startups manage to raise over $10 million. [1] https://medium.com/wibson/how-much-is-your-data-worth-at-least-240-per-year-likely-much-more-984e250c2ffa https://medium.com/wibson/how-much-is-your-data-worth-at-lea... [2] https://www.offshorecompany.com/banking/start-a-bank/your-own/ https://www.offshorecompany.com/banking/start-a-bank/your-ow... [3] https://techcrunch.com/2016/08/26/co-founders-optional/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/08/26/co-founders-optional/