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> e.g. American Indians, they lasted 10,000 years in North America in a much more sustainable fashion. Sure! And why did they change their lifestyle as soon as

by pif 8y ago

> e.g. American Indians, they lasted 10,000 years in North America in a much more sustainable fashion. Sure! And why did they change their lifestyle as soon as they could? Before it was MUCH more comfortable! Cheap energy has revolutionized the world. It is unfortunate that, for the moment, we can only find cheap energy in polluting fossil fuels but, short of discovering a less polluting cheap energy source (if it ever exists), there is no going back! You'll never be able to convince billions of people to give up their car and air conditioning to go back ploughing the fields. Climate change will get irreversible if we don't drastically lower our quality life? OK, let it be! Let's accept it already and start doing what we can do to adapt. But don't talk about going back: nobody will listen to you.

titzer 8y ago
I would suggest reading Sapiens by Yuval Harari to get some more perspective on what the agricultural revolution has done to this planet, and to humans. And for Native Americans just "up and changing their lifestyle"--nothing could be further from the truth. They initially died by the millions from diseases brought by westerns and were then harassed, betrayed, murdered, warred upon, and pushed territory by terrority away from their lands and eventually corralled into reservations.
stukh 8y ago
Quite a few Native Americans did not willingly give up their lifestyle as soon as they could. They were herded into reservations that were way too small to continue their lifestyle. Change was forced upon them. This was especially true when the buffalo herds died off. I’m thinking in particular of the Great Plains Indians. Overall though your point stands. It’s not like billions of people are going to willingly give up the comforts that we have. Though in part this is because it is no longer feasible to live off the land as people did thousands of years ago. The only way to go back, as you call it, is for the population of the world to decline. This would mean a drastic reduction in the birth rate. There is a number for the size of the population of the world such that if everyone of those people lived like Americans pollution wouldn’t be large enough to be a problem.
- Frondo 8y ago
  "when the buffalo herds died off" -- when they were slaughtered almost to extinction, in large part to decimate the Indians who relied on them for food. Check out the size of this pile of buffalo skulls, to get a sense of the scale of destruction we did: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/bison-skulls-pile-used-fertilizer-1870/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/bison-skulls-pile-used-fert...
  - stukh 8y ago
    I didn’t mean to give the impression that the herds died off naturally or died off due to hunting by Native Americans.
  - deadmetheny 8y ago
    >we I did nothing of the sort, thank you very much.
    - titzer 8y ago
      See this a lot. Well if you really take it as a personal affront that many frontiersmen did this...please also refrain from taking credit for any collective positive accomplishment of humanity, like the US constitution, ending slavery, or more generally Science, computers, jeans, or bubble gum. If you wanna stick to the things that you personally did, by all means.
      - deadmetheny 8y ago
        Why would I claim a hand in the creation of any of that? Using things others have built is not 'taking credit'. It's perfectly possible to acknowledge the evils of our ancestors without having to personally feel bad for it because none of us did it and have no reason to feel guilt for it. Kindly fuck off with your guilt complex.
        titzer 8y ago
        > Kindly fuck off with your guilt complex. This just not what anyone wants to see here at HN. No one personally attacked you, yet you feel compelled to spew anger. That's just not our culture. There are other places for shitposting.

by pif 8y ago

titzer 8y ago

I would suggest reading Sapiens by Yuval Harari to get some more perspective on what the agricultural revolution has done to this planet, and to humans. And for Native Americans just "up and changing their lifestyle"--nothing could be further from the truth. They initially died by the millions from diseases brought by westerns and were then harassed, betrayed, murdered, warred upon, and pushed territory by terrority away from their lands and eventually corralled into reservations.

stukh 8y ago

Quite a few Native Americans did not willingly give up their lifestyle as soon as they could. They were herded into reservations that were way too small to continue their lifestyle. Change was forced upon them. This was especially true when the buffalo herds died off. I’m thinking in particular of the Great Plains Indians. Overall though your point stands. It’s not like billions of people are going to willingly give up the comforts that we have. Though in part this is because it is no longer feasible to live off the land as people did thousands of years ago. The only way to go back, as you call it, is for the population of the world to decline. This would mean a drastic reduction in the birth rate. There is a number for the size of the population of the world such that if everyone of those people lived like Americans pollution wouldn’t be large enough to be a problem.

Frondo 8y ago
"when the buffalo herds died off" -- when they were slaughtered almost to extinction, in large part to decimate the Indians who relied on them for food. Check out the size of this pile of buffalo skulls, to get a sense of the scale of destruction we did: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/bison-skulls-pile-used-fertilizer-1870/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/bison-skulls-pile-used-fert...
- stukh 8y ago
  I didn’t mean to give the impression that the herds died off naturally or died off due to hunting by Native Americans.
- deadmetheny 8y ago
  >we I did nothing of the sort, thank you very much.
  - titzer 8y ago
    See this a lot. Well if you really take it as a personal affront that many frontiersmen did this...please also refrain from taking credit for any collective positive accomplishment of humanity, like the US constitution, ending slavery, or more generally Science, computers, jeans, or bubble gum. If you wanna stick to the things that you personally did, by all means.
    - deadmetheny 8y ago
      Why would I claim a hand in the creation of any of that? Using things others have built is not 'taking credit'. It's perfectly possible to acknowledge the evils of our ancestors without having to personally feel bad for it because none of us did it and have no reason to feel guilt for it. Kindly fuck off with your guilt complex.
      - titzer 8y ago
        > Kindly fuck off with your guilt complex. This just not what anyone wants to see here at HN. No one personally attacked you, yet you feel compelled to spew anger. That's just not our culture. There are other places for shitposting.