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> The only way to make actions against climate change a reality is to make it profitable. If we can work out how to make it so that people make gobs of money by

by titzer 8y ago

> The only way to make actions against climate change a reality is to make it profitable. If we can work out how to make it so that people make gobs of money by reversing climate change then things will be peachy. > If we can't figure out a way to turn a buck from fixing climate change then we are all, collectively, fucked. Well, that old world is fucked. But if you look at the lifestyles of, e.g. American Indians, they lasted 10,000 years in North America in a much more sustainable fashion. Granted, it wasn't perfect. Humans caused the extinction of megafauna in North America as elsewhere, but organized agriculture never really took off there, and because of that, that continent was relatively unspoiled until Columbus.

aidos 8y ago
I’m unsure of the connection you’re making in this context. Are you suggesting that the solution is to live more sustainably once most of modern society is destroyed?
- titzer 8y ago
  I honestly don't know what the "solution" is. But it is clear from our current trajectory and the willful blindness of the vast majority of humanity, not to mention the politically motivated disinformation campaigns, that we're looking at inevitable, drastic climate change that will almost certainly destroy modern society, yeah...unfortunately.
pif 8y ago
> e.g. American Indians, they lasted 10,000 years in North America in a much more sustainable fashion. Sure! And why did they change their lifestyle as soon as they could? Before it was MUCH more comfortable! Cheap energy has revolutionized the world. It is unfortunate that, for the moment, we can only find cheap energy in polluting fossil fuels but, short of discovering a less polluting cheap energy source (if it ever exists), there is no going back! You'll never be able to convince billions of people to give up their car and air conditioning to go back ploughing the fields. Climate change will get irreversible if we don't drastically lower our quality life? OK, let it be! Let's accept it already and start doing what we can do to adapt. But don't talk about going back: nobody will listen to you.
- titzer 8y ago
  I would suggest reading Sapiens by Yuval Harari to get some more perspective on what the agricultural revolution has done to this planet, and to humans. And for Native Americans just "up and changing their lifestyle"--nothing could be further from the truth. They initially died by the millions from diseases brought by westerns and were then harassed, betrayed, murdered, warred upon, and pushed territory by terrority away from their lands and eventually corralled into reservations.
- stukh 8y ago
  Quite a few Native Americans did not willingly give up their lifestyle as soon as they could. They were herded into reservations that were way too small to continue their lifestyle. Change was forced upon them. This was especially true when the buffalo herds died off. I’m thinking in particular of the Great Plains Indians. Overall though your point stands. It’s not like billions of people are going to willingly give up the comforts that we have. Though in part this is because it is no longer feasible to live off the land as people did thousands of years ago. The only way to go back, as you call it, is for the population of the world to decline. This would mean a drastic reduction in the birth rate. There is a number for the size of the population of the world such that if everyone of those people lived like Americans pollution wouldn’t be large enough to be a problem.
  - Frondo 8y ago
    "when the buffalo herds died off" -- when they were slaughtered almost to extinction, in large part to decimate the Indians who relied on them for food. Check out the size of this pile of buffalo skulls, to get a sense of the scale of destruction we did: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/bison-skulls-pile-used-fertilizer-1870/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/bison-skulls-pile-used-fert...
    - stukh 8y ago
      I didn’t mean to give the impression that the herds died off naturally or died off due to hunting by Native Americans.

by titzer 8y ago

aidos 8y ago

I’m unsure of the connection you’re making in this context. Are you suggesting that the solution is to live more sustainably once most of modern society is destroyed?

titzer 8y ago
I honestly don't know what the "solution" is. But it is clear from our current trajectory and the willful blindness of the vast majority of humanity, not to mention the politically motivated disinformation campaigns, that we're looking at inevitable, drastic climate change that will almost certainly destroy modern society, yeah...unfortunately.

pif 8y ago

> e.g. American Indians, they lasted 10,000 years in North America in a much more sustainable fashion. Sure! And why did they change their lifestyle as soon as they could? Before it was MUCH more comfortable! Cheap energy has revolutionized the world. It is unfortunate that, for the moment, we can only find cheap energy in polluting fossil fuels but, short of discovering a less polluting cheap energy source (if it ever exists), there is no going back! You'll never be able to convince billions of people to give up their car and air conditioning to go back ploughing the fields. Climate change will get irreversible if we don't drastically lower our quality life? OK, let it be! Let's accept it already and start doing what we can do to adapt. But don't talk about going back: nobody will listen to you.

titzer 8y ago
I would suggest reading Sapiens by Yuval Harari to get some more perspective on what the agricultural revolution has done to this planet, and to humans. And for Native Americans just "up and changing their lifestyle"--nothing could be further from the truth. They initially died by the millions from diseases brought by westerns and were then harassed, betrayed, murdered, warred upon, and pushed territory by terrority away from their lands and eventually corralled into reservations.
stukh 8y ago
Quite a few Native Americans did not willingly give up their lifestyle as soon as they could. They were herded into reservations that were way too small to continue their lifestyle. Change was forced upon them. This was especially true when the buffalo herds died off. I’m thinking in particular of the Great Plains Indians. Overall though your point stands. It’s not like billions of people are going to willingly give up the comforts that we have. Though in part this is because it is no longer feasible to live off the land as people did thousands of years ago. The only way to go back, as you call it, is for the population of the world to decline. This would mean a drastic reduction in the birth rate. There is a number for the size of the population of the world such that if everyone of those people lived like Americans pollution wouldn’t be large enough to be a problem.
- Frondo 8y ago
  "when the buffalo herds died off" -- when they were slaughtered almost to extinction, in large part to decimate the Indians who relied on them for food. Check out the size of this pile of buffalo skulls, to get a sense of the scale of destruction we did: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/bison-skulls-pile-used-fertilizer-1870/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/bison-skulls-pile-used-fert...
  - stukh 8y ago
    I didn’t mean to give the impression that the herds died off naturally or died off due to hunting by Native Americans.