6 ms·

Saying "yes ok lets kill you" just says "yes you are not worth saving"

dang 8y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments, especially on a difficult topic like this one where emotions are guaranteed to run high.
- jazoom 8y ago
  Although I'm pro-euthanasia in a medical sense, I don't think it's fair to dismiss GP's comment like that. There was definitely substance to it, and that substance is worth thinking about, even if you sit on the other side of the fence. If you disagree, say why you disagree. Don't just say "your viewpoint has no substance".
  - SilasX 8y ago
    I agree. Maybe I’m ignorant, but I’d never thought about the topic that way, about the bind it puts the doctor in when you say you want to die, and how that interplays with the impact on mental health. I also think the comment was a succinct way to communicate that insight.
    - jazoom 8y ago
      I'm particularly fond of succinct insights. It gives you time to think. Paragraphs of disclaimers and apologies distract from insights IMHO.
  - dang 8y ago
    It's not a question of disagreeing. That comment was glib and reductionist. People need to do better than that here, especially on divisive topics. The replies to my objection were far more substantive than the original comment, proving that this is easy enough to do if people want to.
    - jazoom 8y ago
      Those replies also appreciated that "glib and reductionist" comment.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - SilasX 8y ago
      My rephrasing of the insight took about 3x as many words; it's generally a good thing when you can convey the same insight with fewer. I get what you mean about trite, inflammatory comments, but I don't think the one you're objecting to qualifies. It points out a non-obvious implication of accepting someone's request to die. I see a clear difference between that and something like, "sure, let everyone who feels hopeless die, that sure saves money on people who aren't worth saving!".
- manuisin 8y ago
  I think that's a very valid point by the GP. It's true that it's easier to kill someone when they want to die, rather than help them. For some reason, mental/emotional problems are not treated differently from physical ones here, it's perverse. Some physical problems we don't have the technology to heal, allowing people relief from the pain they suffer from them is reasonable. But I'd wager the large majority of mental and emotional problems can be healed, given enough care, time and love. But love is in short supply already, so may be that's not reasonable.
  - PastaMonster 8y ago
    I have had psychiatric care for over half my life. The medicine I get do not work and I have tested everything the doctors have prescribed to me. None of the medicines work. I have had the feeling of hopelessness and the will to die for a very long time. If this was an option in my country I would jump at the chance. When an animal suffers you put it down. You do not keep it alive for as long as possible. That is barbaric. The indifference the doctors have is not helping either. That the nurses treat you as a child is infuriating. Nurses come as close to going over to baby speech as possible. I would love to know the drugs she drank.
    - jazoom 8y ago
      I understand if you choose not to answer this. You say you would jump at euthanasia. Why do you not just take your own life in a more "conventional" way?
      - throwaway8879 8y ago
        I think most of us have this idea that if we don't take a drastic attempt like jumping off a bridge or hanging from a ceiling fan, we aren't suffering enough. In my case, I suppose I was looking for something painless hence a bottle of pills. Perhaps our biological instinct for survival simply kicks in and whereas many people all throughout history have taken direct/bloody route to an exit, some of us just can't seem to do it.
      - 8y ago
jazoom 8y ago
I see and feel your point. As a doctor who has worked with people with severe mental health issues I can imagine nothing worse than experiencing what they do. This must be especially agonising for someone so young, who will have to experience this her whole life. That said, I'm not sure I could be part of euthanasia in a case like this. This one is very tricky with the mental state to consider. Also, what if a new treatment for some of her conditions arise within a few years? Unfortunately, progress in psychiatry is slower than probably all other medical fields.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I agree this is very difficult. But saying "Also, what if a new treatment for some of her conditions arise within a few years? " is not fair to the person who is suffering at the moment. After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years I think we should give people the option to leave life in diginity if they want to.
  - jazoom 8y ago
    is not fair to the person who is suffering at the moment No, it's not fair. I don't have a good answer. After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years Absolutely. Some people suffer terribly at the end of their lives. This is the type of euthanasia I support.
  - taxicabjesus 8y ago
    > After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years I think we should give people the option to leave life in diginity if they want to. In my way of thinking, a person is not "old" until they have lived past their "expiration date". Everyone reaches their expiration date at a different time. One woman told me she immediately thought of her first husband when the idea of people having expiration dates came up: he'd died from getting electrocuted while working on a ceiling fan. At the time they had young kids and losing her husband was traumatic, but retrospectively she realized he actually had very little drive to live. Both my grandfathers lived past their expiration date, as they were kept alive by artificial means for an extra 5-10 years. But once those pacemakers were installed, it was easier to keep them running than to turn them off. Conservative care is much kinder for old people than modern medicine. Since doctors don't have to care about cost, it's easy to use any measure to keep their patient alive, even when it's not very appropriate.

dang 8y ago

Please don't post unsubstantive comments, especially on a difficult topic like this one where emotions are guaranteed to run high.

jazoom 8y ago
Although I'm pro-euthanasia in a medical sense, I don't think it's fair to dismiss GP's comment like that. There was definitely substance to it, and that substance is worth thinking about, even if you sit on the other side of the fence. If you disagree, say why you disagree. Don't just say "your viewpoint has no substance".
- SilasX 8y ago
  I agree. Maybe I’m ignorant, but I’d never thought about the topic that way, about the bind it puts the doctor in when you say you want to die, and how that interplays with the impact on mental health. I also think the comment was a succinct way to communicate that insight.
  - jazoom 8y ago
    I'm particularly fond of succinct insights. It gives you time to think. Paragraphs of disclaimers and apologies distract from insights IMHO.
- dang 8y ago
  It's not a question of disagreeing. That comment was glib and reductionist. People need to do better than that here, especially on divisive topics. The replies to my objection were far more substantive than the original comment, proving that this is easy enough to do if people want to.
  - jazoom 8y ago
    Those replies also appreciated that "glib and reductionist" comment.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - SilasX 8y ago
    My rephrasing of the insight took about 3x as many words; it's generally a good thing when you can convey the same insight with fewer. I get what you mean about trite, inflammatory comments, but I don't think the one you're objecting to qualifies. It points out a non-obvious implication of accepting someone's request to die. I see a clear difference between that and something like, "sure, let everyone who feels hopeless die, that sure saves money on people who aren't worth saving!".
manuisin 8y ago
I think that's a very valid point by the GP. It's true that it's easier to kill someone when they want to die, rather than help them. For some reason, mental/emotional problems are not treated differently from physical ones here, it's perverse. Some physical problems we don't have the technology to heal, allowing people relief from the pain they suffer from them is reasonable. But I'd wager the large majority of mental and emotional problems can be healed, given enough care, time and love. But love is in short supply already, so may be that's not reasonable.
- PastaMonster 8y ago
  I have had psychiatric care for over half my life. The medicine I get do not work and I have tested everything the doctors have prescribed to me. None of the medicines work. I have had the feeling of hopelessness and the will to die for a very long time. If this was an option in my country I would jump at the chance. When an animal suffers you put it down. You do not keep it alive for as long as possible. That is barbaric. The indifference the doctors have is not helping either. That the nurses treat you as a child is infuriating. Nurses come as close to going over to baby speech as possible. I would love to know the drugs she drank.
  - jazoom 8y ago
    I understand if you choose not to answer this. You say you would jump at euthanasia. Why do you not just take your own life in a more "conventional" way?
    - throwaway8879 8y ago
      I think most of us have this idea that if we don't take a drastic attempt like jumping off a bridge or hanging from a ceiling fan, we aren't suffering enough. In my case, I suppose I was looking for something painless hence a bottle of pills. Perhaps our biological instinct for survival simply kicks in and whereas many people all throughout history have taken direct/bloody route to an exit, some of us just can't seem to do it.
    - 8y ago

jazoom 8y ago

I see and feel your point. As a doctor who has worked with people with severe mental health issues I can imagine nothing worse than experiencing what they do. This must be especially agonising for someone so young, who will have to experience this her whole life. That said, I'm not sure I could be part of euthanasia in a case like this. This one is very tricky with the mental state to consider. Also, what if a new treatment for some of her conditions arise within a few years? Unfortunately, progress in psychiatry is slower than probably all other medical fields.

maxxxxx 8y ago
I agree this is very difficult. But saying "Also, what if a new treatment for some of her conditions arise within a few years? " is not fair to the person who is suffering at the moment. After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years I think we should give people the option to leave life in diginity if they want to.
- jazoom 8y ago
  is not fair to the person who is suffering at the moment No, it's not fair. I don't have a good answer. After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years Absolutely. Some people suffer terribly at the end of their lives. This is the type of euthanasia I support.
- taxicabjesus 8y ago
  > After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years I think we should give people the option to leave life in diginity if they want to. In my way of thinking, a person is not "old" until they have lived past their "expiration date". Everyone reaches their expiration date at a different time. One woman told me she immediately thought of her first husband when the idea of people having expiration dates came up: he'd died from getting electrocuted while working on a ceiling fan. At the time they had young kids and losing her husband was traumatic, but retrospectively she realized he actually had very little drive to live. Both my grandfathers lived past their expiration date, as they were kept alive by artificial means for an extra 5-10 years. But once those pacemakers were installed, it was easier to keep them running than to turn them off. Conservative care is much kinder for old people than modern medicine. Since doctors don't have to care about cost, it's easy to use any measure to keep their patient alive, even when it's not very appropriate.