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Thank you for this work. Do you know why the applicability to type two diabetes is not as clear as for type one? I'd love to read more about that. The core p

by dkarl 8y ago

Thank you for this work. Do you know why the applicability to type two diabetes is not as clear as for type one? I'd love to read more about that. The core problem is that the FDA-approved devices are optimized not for getting the best result, but for ensuring the manufacturer can't be blamed if something goes wrong. I live with someone who has a CGM (continuous glucose monitor) where the device came in a box with an insert saying "do not use this device to make medical treatment decisions." To see any of the readings you have to install an app whose start screen says it's experimental and, again, can't be used to make treatment decisions. But the user's manual has a chapter titled "Treatment Decisions" that tells you how to use it to decide when to take insulin and how much to take. It's frustrating that the messages have to be so contradictory. A final question: how essential is it to be tech-savvy to use this technology? Is it sufficient to have somebody tech-savvy close to you who is available every day but not every hour of the day, or is it something that should only be in the hands of someone who understands how it works?

trampypizza 8y ago
I can't answer your questions from a clinical perspective, however I'll have a stab at them. I'm a type 1 diabetic, diagnosed when I was 9. > Do you know why the applicability to type two diabetes is not as clear as for type one? I'm only stabbing at this, and it's anecdotal, but I believe it is likely due to the lack of consistency across type 2 diabetics. Whilst there is variation in Type 1 Diabetes, it is largely limited to lifestyle but the basic principle is the same - you don't produce insulin yourself. Type 2 diabetes is often caused by insulin resistance, and I guess varies wildly based on the individual, their lifestyle, and their genes. > I live with someone who has a CGM (continuous glucose monitor) where the device came in a box with an insert saying "do not use this device to make medical treatment decisions." To see any of the readings you have to install an app whose start screen says it's experimental and, again, can't be used to make treatment decisions. But the user's manual has a chapter titled "Treatment Decisions" that tells you how to use it to decide when to take insulin and how much to take. It's frustrating that the messages have to be so contradictory. I haven't been given a CGM for longer than a few weeks (NHS rules are a bit restrictive in my area if your control is good). However the rationale for not using the CGM to make decisions is based around how it gauges your blood sugar. Because it's relying on blood glucose levels in the skin tissue I have been told that there is a delay, and basically the CGM operates about 15 minutes behind your current glucose levels. This is ok when you're using it to track glucose levels over a day, but not particularly safe if you're relying on it to make a decision for obvious reasons. > A final question: how essential is it to be tech-savvy to use this technology? This is a question I have asked myself a few times. As mentioned above, it's pretty difficult to get a pump and CGM on the NHS in my area without proving that you can't treat yourself adequately with regular injections. I am unwilling to sacrifice my health to have a pop at getting a pump, so I had a look at private options. Whilst initially I think there's a fairly steep learning curve, there is quite a lot of documentation provided, and the community is pretty active and helpful. I suppose it's also helped by the fact that there is only a few pumps on the market (relatively speaking). The issue is that if something goes wrong in your config, which is not uncommon for a homebrew solution, then you have to go back to manually adjusting your insulin.
- exDM69 8y ago
  My SO has a continuous glucose monitoring, and as you say, the reading lags behind by 15-30 minutes compared to measurement from blood. But the blood measurement is a single, instantaneous value while the GCM meter shows the last 8 hour glucose levels plotted and the current upward/downward trend. While it takes a bit of cross-referencing between blood and tissue glucose levels to get used to the readings, it actually provides better information to base decisions on (fast acting) insulin dosage. The GCM (Freestyle Libre) has been a life-changer and improved long-term management of diabetes. In particular, it has been helpful for maintaining a reasonably flat glucose level throughout the night (because of better information for evening insulin doses), where they previously had high and low peaks (down to dangerous levels a few times). I suggest you do everything you can to get a continuous monitoring system. Because you can see your glucose level history, you can then make decisions on whether you need an insulin pump or not. If your night time glucose levels are fine, you might not need one. If there are high or low peaks you can't manage, a pump will improve your life.
  - trampypizza 8y ago
    > it actually provides better information to base decisions on (fast acting) insulin dosage Would you say that's because you can get a better idea of trends once you have enough data? My understanding has always been that the true value in a CGM is revealing those trends and patterns that are really unique to the person and that are hard to spot with regular glucose testing. EDIT: I realise that this is basically what you've said. Apologies, brainfart. > I suggest you do everything you can to get a continuous monitoring system. I'm currently jumping through the hoops to get myself one now. I can get my hands on one via the NHS fairly easily, it's just the pumps which are hard to get. I've done a lot of work over the past few years to get my control to a place I am happy with (finishing uni and that awful realisation that you are in fact mortal). I also wanna say that I recognise that as someone who is able to control my diabetes using injections it would be wrong for me to demand a pump when there are others who for various reasons can't control their condition. In a perfect world it would be great, but hey, we work with what we've got, right.
    - 8y ago
jimrandomh 8y ago
I'm not really an expert on T2DM (I'm T1), but I believe the main issue is going to be that insulin sensitivity is much more variable for T2s than T1s, and will change faster than autosens can keep up with. The reason for the mixed messaging about treatment decisions is that the Dexcom G4/G5 (they're the same sensor with a different receiver) spent part of its product life not approved for use as a basis for treatment decisions, and was later approved for use as a basis for treatment decisions, but only under certain circumstances. There are some best-practices around CGM sensors that the manufacturers won't tell you about, like pre-soaking sensors, which greatly improve reliability. And, counter-intuitively, a closed-loop system is actually less demanding of sensor precision than a human giving correction boluses would be. For OpenAPS, getting started involves installing Linux on an IoT board, setting up a server on Heroku, and monitoring log files. Tech savvy is definitely required, but mostly for setup, and occasional troubleshooting; if you have a tech-savvy person willing to put some time into it, the can set it up, show you how to monitor it, and then step away.

by dkarl 8y ago

trampypizza 8y ago

I can't answer your questions from a clinical perspective, however I'll have a stab at them. I'm a type 1 diabetic, diagnosed when I was 9. > Do you know why the applicability to type two diabetes is not as clear as for type one? I'm only stabbing at this, and it's anecdotal, but I believe it is likely due to the lack of consistency across type 2 diabetics. Whilst there is variation in Type 1 Diabetes, it is largely limited to lifestyle but the basic principle is the same - you don't produce insulin yourself. Type 2 diabetes is often caused by insulin resistance, and I guess varies wildly based on the individual, their lifestyle, and their genes. > I live with someone who has a CGM (continuous glucose monitor) where the device came in a box with an insert saying "do not use this device to make medical treatment decisions." To see any of the readings you have to install an app whose start screen says it's experimental and, again, can't be used to make treatment decisions. But the user's manual has a chapter titled "Treatment Decisions" that tells you how to use it to decide when to take insulin and how much to take. It's frustrating that the messages have to be so contradictory. I haven't been given a CGM for longer than a few weeks (NHS rules are a bit restrictive in my area if your control is good). However the rationale for not using the CGM to make decisions is based around how it gauges your blood sugar. Because it's relying on blood glucose levels in the skin tissue I have been told that there is a delay, and basically the CGM operates about 15 minutes behind your current glucose levels. This is ok when you're using it to track glucose levels over a day, but not particularly safe if you're relying on it to make a decision for obvious reasons. > A final question: how essential is it to be tech-savvy to use this technology? This is a question I have asked myself a few times. As mentioned above, it's pretty difficult to get a pump and CGM on the NHS in my area without proving that you can't treat yourself adequately with regular injections. I am unwilling to sacrifice my health to have a pop at getting a pump, so I had a look at private options. Whilst initially I think there's a fairly steep learning curve, there is quite a lot of documentation provided, and the community is pretty active and helpful. I suppose it's also helped by the fact that there is only a few pumps on the market (relatively speaking). The issue is that if something goes wrong in your config, which is not uncommon for a homebrew solution, then you have to go back to manually adjusting your insulin.

exDM69 8y ago
My SO has a continuous glucose monitoring, and as you say, the reading lags behind by 15-30 minutes compared to measurement from blood. But the blood measurement is a single, instantaneous value while the GCM meter shows the last 8 hour glucose levels plotted and the current upward/downward trend. While it takes a bit of cross-referencing between blood and tissue glucose levels to get used to the readings, it actually provides better information to base decisions on (fast acting) insulin dosage. The GCM (Freestyle Libre) has been a life-changer and improved long-term management of diabetes. In particular, it has been helpful for maintaining a reasonably flat glucose level throughout the night (because of better information for evening insulin doses), where they previously had high and low peaks (down to dangerous levels a few times). I suggest you do everything you can to get a continuous monitoring system. Because you can see your glucose level history, you can then make decisions on whether you need an insulin pump or not. If your night time glucose levels are fine, you might not need one. If there are high or low peaks you can't manage, a pump will improve your life.
- trampypizza 8y ago
  > it actually provides better information to base decisions on (fast acting) insulin dosage Would you say that's because you can get a better idea of trends once you have enough data? My understanding has always been that the true value in a CGM is revealing those trends and patterns that are really unique to the person and that are hard to spot with regular glucose testing. EDIT: I realise that this is basically what you've said. Apologies, brainfart. > I suggest you do everything you can to get a continuous monitoring system. I'm currently jumping through the hoops to get myself one now. I can get my hands on one via the NHS fairly easily, it's just the pumps which are hard to get. I've done a lot of work over the past few years to get my control to a place I am happy with (finishing uni and that awful realisation that you are in fact mortal). I also wanna say that I recognise that as someone who is able to control my diabetes using injections it would be wrong for me to demand a pump when there are others who for various reasons can't control their condition. In a perfect world it would be great, but hey, we work with what we've got, right.
  - 8y ago

jimrandomh 8y ago

I'm not really an expert on T2DM (I'm T1), but I believe the main issue is going to be that insulin sensitivity is much more variable for T2s than T1s, and will change faster than autosens can keep up with. The reason for the mixed messaging about treatment decisions is that the Dexcom G4/G5 (they're the same sensor with a different receiver) spent part of its product life not approved for use as a basis for treatment decisions, and was later approved for use as a basis for treatment decisions, but only under certain circumstances. There are some best-practices around CGM sensors that the manufacturers won't tell you about, like pre-soaking sensors, which greatly improve reliability. And, counter-intuitively, a closed-loop system is actually less demanding of sensor precision than a human giving correction boluses would be. For OpenAPS, getting started involves installing Linux on an IoT board, setting up a server on Heroku, and monitoring log files. Tech savvy is definitely required, but mostly for setup, and occasional troubleshooting; if you have a tech-savvy person willing to put some time into it, the can set it up, show you how to monitor it, and then step away.