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This article clumsily papers over the fundamental difference between Apple, and companies like Facebook and Google: Apple does not collect or possess that custo

by Bud 8y ago

This article clumsily papers over the fundamental difference between Apple, and companies like Facebook and Google: Apple does not collect or possess that customer data in the first place. That is the essence of why, and how, Apple can manage to be a better steward of your privacy: it doesn't collect all kinds of data on you. That data is under your control, as a user, which is how it should be. But that in turn means that you have to be responsible for who you share that data with.

vkou 8y ago
> Apple does not collect or possess that customer data in the first place. For now. When their growth, or margins start shrinking, Wall Street will push hard on them to collect and monetize this data. Remember when you paid a premium for cable TV, because it didn't have advertisements? Now, you still pay a premium, but it's 33% ads.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Remember when you paid a premium for cable TV, because it didn't have advertisements? No, cable originated as means to deliver broadcast channels, which had ads. You never paid for basic cable because it did have ads, because it always did. You paid a premium because you got a clear signal not degraded by distance and atmospheric conditions. And later because it offered channels (still ad supported) that you couldn't get over the air at all. Now, even later, it was possible to pay a premium on top of basic cable to get additional channels without ads, but those premium channels still don't have ads.
  - Skunkleton 8y ago
    I'm not sure about the other channels but HBO wont even do product placement, which is very nice.
- Bud 8y ago
  Wall Street has had precisely zero influence on Apple in this area, and this was true even when Apple was pretty near going out of business. It's not in Apple's DNA to do this, and it's firmly outside of their core ethics. Don't count on this happening, or assume that everyone is stupid and evil just because most people are stupid and evil.
  - white-flame 8y ago
    Past performance is not an indicator of future performance. For example, Microsoft has certainly changed core issues across the last decade or so. There's nothing special about Apple itself that would prevent such a shift either, given any future leadership change.
  - vkou 8y ago
    Wall Street owns the company, and can set its direction. Apple isn't some hobby business, under the control of a principled founder. Particular people in the organization will push back against such measures, but whether or not they will win is crapshoot. Building weapons wasn't in Google's DNA either, yet Maven happened. It was only shut down because the pushback succeeded. Its success was not a sure thing. Corporations aren't people - the only principles or ethical compasses they follow are those of their employees. Employees come and go, and, in the case of leadership, can be fired by the owners. There's a long history of tech companies that have done a 180, in terms of their DNA. Microsoft, SUN (Having been bought by Oracle), Google, are some of the more prominent ones.
ucaetano 8y ago
There is no difference, other than that Apple tried to chase Google's and Facebook's ad-based business model wit iAds but failed miserably. The result was a shift towards privacy to try to drain the profits of those two companies. But make no mistake, Apple won't think twice before handing over data to the government or any other party if it makes business sense, as they did in China.
- dkonofalski 8y ago
  If that's what you took away from the iAds situation, then you horribly misunderstood that. iAds was a feature available to developers to help monetize free apps. Yes, Apple got a cut of that but that's not at all the same as Google's or Facebook's ad-based model since their ads are targeted. Apple explicitly did not target based on personal data in iAds. Also, your China example is also a straw man because Apple's terms in China explicitly allowed for that before they even sold a single phone there. In the US, for example, Apple isn't able to provide personal data to authorities. It can only provide information that doesn't live on-device and that's stored unencrypted which, as of right now, is nothing unless a user explicitly asks for it to be stored unencrypted.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Apple explicitly did not target based on personal data in iAds. I don't know if ads on AppleTV to be part of iAds or not, but I was a little surprised to see this menu on my AppleTV today: Settings > General > Privacy > Advertising The choices for this are Limit Ad Tracking, Reset Advertising Identifier, and About Advertising and Privacy. Apple has an entire web page showing how to opt-out of targeted advertising on its devices, including the iPhone: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202074 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202074 The most telling one is Settings > Privacy > Location Services > System Services > Location-Based Apple Ads
    - dpkonofa 8y ago
      First off... iAds is something completely different from what you've just posted about. iAds was a platform available to developers. It has nothing to do with Apple providing advertisements to you. Second, did you read that page at all, then? That's not at all the same as advertising based on your personal data. That's Apple showing you App Store promotions based on the searches you're typing in from the App Store and is completely localized to the App Store and App Store search. It's what allows you to go to the App Store and have the McDonald's sponsored ad show up when you visit a McDonald's. The only information being sent is your search term, anonymously, and the location-based ads are served based on iBeacons. None of your personal info is ever sent outgoing from your phone.
izacus 8y ago
Huh? What do you think your online iCloud profile with contracts, emails, calendars, app storage, app backups and synced files stores?
- Bud 8y ago
  That's not Apple collecting your data. That's you voluntarily opting in to an optional backup strategy, which you as a user have full control of.
  - tjoff 8y ago
    Can you use your own NAS as backup target?
    - freehunter 8y ago
      You can back up locally via iTunes, yes.
      - saurik 8y ago
        To underscore this further: the iCloud backup system only came into existence long after Apple launched the iPhone, which came with an "Apple is not involved at all" iTunes backup flow. I would go so far as to say they only added iCloud backup because people asked for it: you don't have to use it (I definitely don't).
        reaperducer 8y ago
        As a point of interest, I believe one of the big motivating factors for iCloud was to help people who have iPhones, but don't have computers. Many people in the general public don't realize that you can have an iPhone and not have a computer, as long as you enable iCloud so you can migrate all of your apps and other information from one iPhone to another. If you're doing an upgrade from one iPhone to another, you only have to turn on your iCloud for a time before the upgrade, then once you migrate, you can turn it off again. Though, if you have no computer backup you should really keep iCloud on all the time so that if your phone gets eaten by a tiger, all your stuff can appear on your new phone. I remember Mr. Jobs talking about this once. Not the tiger part. That was just me.
craftyguy 8y ago
> does not collect or possess that customer data in the first place. Really? They don't collect any info in their app store / itunes? That seems hard to believe..
- eridius 8y ago
  They collect the information necessary to perform the expected functions. For example, in order to purchase stuff from the app store / iTunes they have your name, address, and credit card, same as any merchant that stores payment details. But they don't collect information that's not necessary to the act of performing a transaction with you. What's more, they silo data internally, so even though various parts of the company might know more about you in order to perform various functions, they don't pool that data together. In general, companies like Facebook and Google view personal data as an asset and seek to acquire as much as possible. But Apple views personal data as a liability and seeks to have as little as possible.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    They store information regarding past purchases too, right?
    - dkonofalski 8y ago
      Not the person that originally responded but I don't see why that would be any cause for concern. They don't share that information with anyone and it's only "collected" in that you've made a purchase with them and they keep a receipt of that transaction. That's not anything close to what's being discussed which is personal data that is shared.
  - taormina 8y ago
    I mean, go check out the Frequent Locations on your phone.
    - wrboyce 8y ago
      On your phone, Apple aren’t collecting that data.
GeekyBear 8y ago
>Apple does not collect or possess that customer data in the first place In comparison to Google, for example, the difference in what the two companies want to know about you is huge. Google has announced that it buys copies of your credit card purchase data from third party data brokers. >Google has been able to track your location using Google Maps for a long time. Since 2014, it has used that information to provide advertisers with information on how often people visit their stores. But store visits aren’t purchases, so, as Google said in a blog post on its new service for marketers, it has partnered with “third parties” that give them access to 70 percent of all credit and debit card purchases. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-your-credit-card-purchases-and-connects-them-to-its-online-profile-of-you/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-... It's one thing to store data necessary to complete a financial transaction with your customer. Buying a customer's entire credit card purchase history regardless of who they are doing business with is an entirely different thing.

by Bud 8y ago

vkou 8y ago

> Apple does not collect or possess that customer data in the first place. For now. When their growth, or margins start shrinking, Wall Street will push hard on them to collect and monetize this data. Remember when you paid a premium for cable TV, because it didn't have advertisements? Now, you still pay a premium, but it's 33% ads.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> Remember when you paid a premium for cable TV, because it didn't have advertisements? No, cable originated as means to deliver broadcast channels, which had ads. You never paid for basic cable because it did have ads, because it always did. You paid a premium because you got a clear signal not degraded by distance and atmospheric conditions. And later because it offered channels (still ad supported) that you couldn't get over the air at all. Now, even later, it was possible to pay a premium on top of basic cable to get additional channels without ads, but those premium channels still don't have ads.
- Skunkleton 8y ago
  I'm not sure about the other channels but HBO wont even do product placement, which is very nice.
Bud 8y ago
Wall Street has had precisely zero influence on Apple in this area, and this was true even when Apple was pretty near going out of business. It's not in Apple's DNA to do this, and it's firmly outside of their core ethics. Don't count on this happening, or assume that everyone is stupid and evil just because most people are stupid and evil.
- white-flame 8y ago
  Past performance is not an indicator of future performance. For example, Microsoft has certainly changed core issues across the last decade or so. There's nothing special about Apple itself that would prevent such a shift either, given any future leadership change.
- vkou 8y ago
  Wall Street owns the company, and can set its direction. Apple isn't some hobby business, under the control of a principled founder. Particular people in the organization will push back against such measures, but whether or not they will win is crapshoot. Building weapons wasn't in Google's DNA either, yet Maven happened. It was only shut down because the pushback succeeded. Its success was not a sure thing. Corporations aren't people - the only principles or ethical compasses they follow are those of their employees. Employees come and go, and, in the case of leadership, can be fired by the owners. There's a long history of tech companies that have done a 180, in terms of their DNA. Microsoft, SUN (Having been bought by Oracle), Google, are some of the more prominent ones.

ucaetano 8y ago

There is no difference, other than that Apple tried to chase Google's and Facebook's ad-based business model wit iAds but failed miserably. The result was a shift towards privacy to try to drain the profits of those two companies. But make no mistake, Apple won't think twice before handing over data to the government or any other party if it makes business sense, as they did in China.

dkonofalski 8y ago
If that's what you took away from the iAds situation, then you horribly misunderstood that. iAds was a feature available to developers to help monetize free apps. Yes, Apple got a cut of that but that's not at all the same as Google's or Facebook's ad-based model since their ads are targeted. Apple explicitly did not target based on personal data in iAds. Also, your China example is also a straw man because Apple's terms in China explicitly allowed for that before they even sold a single phone there. In the US, for example, Apple isn't able to provide personal data to authorities. It can only provide information that doesn't live on-device and that's stored unencrypted which, as of right now, is nothing unless a user explicitly asks for it to be stored unencrypted.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Apple explicitly did not target based on personal data in iAds. I don't know if ads on AppleTV to be part of iAds or not, but I was a little surprised to see this menu on my AppleTV today: Settings > General > Privacy > Advertising The choices for this are Limit Ad Tracking, Reset Advertising Identifier, and About Advertising and Privacy. Apple has an entire web page showing how to opt-out of targeted advertising on its devices, including the iPhone: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202074 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202074 The most telling one is Settings > Privacy > Location Services > System Services > Location-Based Apple Ads
  - dpkonofa 8y ago
    First off... iAds is something completely different from what you've just posted about. iAds was a platform available to developers. It has nothing to do with Apple providing advertisements to you. Second, did you read that page at all, then? That's not at all the same as advertising based on your personal data. That's Apple showing you App Store promotions based on the searches you're typing in from the App Store and is completely localized to the App Store and App Store search. It's what allows you to go to the App Store and have the McDonald's sponsored ad show up when you visit a McDonald's. The only information being sent is your search term, anonymously, and the location-based ads are served based on iBeacons. None of your personal info is ever sent outgoing from your phone.

izacus 8y ago

Huh? What do you think your online iCloud profile with contracts, emails, calendars, app storage, app backups and synced files stores?

Bud 8y ago
That's not Apple collecting your data. That's you voluntarily opting in to an optional backup strategy, which you as a user have full control of.
- tjoff 8y ago
  Can you use your own NAS as backup target?
  - freehunter 8y ago
    You can back up locally via iTunes, yes.
    - saurik 8y ago
      To underscore this further: the iCloud backup system only came into existence long after Apple launched the iPhone, which came with an "Apple is not involved at all" iTunes backup flow. I would go so far as to say they only added iCloud backup because people asked for it: you don't have to use it (I definitely don't).
      - reaperducer 8y ago
        As a point of interest, I believe one of the big motivating factors for iCloud was to help people who have iPhones, but don't have computers. Many people in the general public don't realize that you can have an iPhone and not have a computer, as long as you enable iCloud so you can migrate all of your apps and other information from one iPhone to another. If you're doing an upgrade from one iPhone to another, you only have to turn on your iCloud for a time before the upgrade, then once you migrate, you can turn it off again. Though, if you have no computer backup you should really keep iCloud on all the time so that if your phone gets eaten by a tiger, all your stuff can appear on your new phone. I remember Mr. Jobs talking about this once. Not the tiger part. That was just me.

craftyguy 8y ago

> does not collect or possess that customer data in the first place. Really? They don't collect any info in their app store / itunes? That seems hard to believe..

eridius 8y ago
They collect the information necessary to perform the expected functions. For example, in order to purchase stuff from the app store / iTunes they have your name, address, and credit card, same as any merchant that stores payment details. But they don't collect information that's not necessary to the act of performing a transaction with you. What's more, they silo data internally, so even though various parts of the company might know more about you in order to perform various functions, they don't pool that data together. In general, companies like Facebook and Google view personal data as an asset and seek to acquire as much as possible. But Apple views personal data as a liability and seeks to have as little as possible.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  They store information regarding past purchases too, right?
  - dkonofalski 8y ago
    Not the person that originally responded but I don't see why that would be any cause for concern. They don't share that information with anyone and it's only "collected" in that you've made a purchase with them and they keep a receipt of that transaction. That's not anything close to what's being discussed which is personal data that is shared.
- taormina 8y ago
  I mean, go check out the Frequent Locations on your phone.
  - wrboyce 8y ago
    On your phone, Apple aren’t collecting that data.

GeekyBear 8y ago

>Apple does not collect or possess that customer data in the first place In comparison to Google, for example, the difference in what the two companies want to know about you is huge. Google has announced that it buys copies of your credit card purchase data from third party data brokers. >Google has been able to track your location using Google Maps for a long time. Since 2014, it has used that information to provide advertisers with information on how often people visit their stores. But store visits aren’t purchases, so, as Google said in a blog post on its new service for marketers, it has partnered with “third parties” that give them access to 70 percent of all credit and debit card purchases. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-your-credit-card-purchases-and-connects-them-to-its-online-profile-of-you/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-... It's one thing to store data necessary to complete a financial transaction with your customer. Buying a customer's entire credit card purchase history regardless of who they are doing business with is an entirely different thing.