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The real issue is that cab drivers are committing suicide because of their debts. Simple market analysis ignores the real human toll these technological changes

by pradn 8y ago

The real issue is that cab drivers are committing suicide because of their debts. Simple market analysis ignores the real human toll these technological changes are making. Yes, better service should be rewarded. But those hurting should get some relief. (I personally don't care too much about medallion-owning companies/groups.)

lotsofpulp 8y ago
That issue is present with everyone else also, not just cab drivers. I don't see why they should be singled out for relief. If we want to provide a safety net for people obviated by technology, that has nothing to do with Uber or Lyft.
- tzs 8y ago
  One difference between taxis and "everyone else" is that with everyone else, the business that does in their business is usually legal. Uber and Lyft were largely operating illegally when they started in most cities. They ignored expensive licensing requirements. They ignored safety regulations. They ignored insurance requirements. They ignored price controls on fares. They ignored requirements to accommodate disabled people. Taxi companies who were obeying all these rules (which all imposed costs on the taxi companies that Uber and Lyft did not have) had a reasonable expectation, perhaps even a right, to expect the city would force Uber and Lyft to follow those rules too, or would shut them down. But the cities didn't, so I think a good case can be made that the cities owe the taxi drivers a bailout.
  - bln_wgc 8y ago
    Uber and Lyft operated 100% legally in NYC from their inception. The NYC ride-sharing market is not like other US cities, which allow peer-to-peer ridesharing. All rideshare drivers in NYC are licensed by the TLC, and Uber and Lyft are licensed TLC operators. Uber and Lyft beat NYC taxis fair and square - they used the existing TLC regulations (with the overhead required) and won out because of being a better product.
- newfocogi 8y ago
  I think this concept is address well in Neil Postman's "Five Things We Need to Know About Technological Change" [1] [1] http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/postman.pdf http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/pos...
- pradn 8y ago
  Perfect is the enemy of the good. Why not help some people on the way to helping a wider group? I do agree that we need wider-ranging policies for people displaced by technological change. It would help people find work and society make use of their talents.
CamperBob2 8y ago
The idea that Uber, or any other company, is responsible for someone else committing suicide is both bizarre and offensive.
- pradn 8y ago
  From https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/nyregion/a-taxi-driver-took-his-own-life-his-family-blames-ubers-influence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/nyregion/a-taxi-driver-to...: Immigrants from Romania, the couple had bought their New York City taxi medallion nearly three decades ago. Lately, it had been difficult to find fares. Her husband worked 12-hour shifts, but brought home less money. He was worried about the plunging value of their once-lucrative medallion and frustrated about Uber’s takeover of the industry. On a cold day in March, Mr. Ochisor hanged himself in his garage in Queens. His family blames the growing hopelessness he felt over his fortunes as a taxi driver.
  - CamperBob2 8y ago
    Yeah, a real tear-jerker. So, let's fix this. How do you propose to write a law that defines exactly when responsibility for suicide attaches? In this case, Mr. Ochisor's customers were so desperate for an alternative to his three-decade-old business that they turned to a startup company that works by (literally) dodging taxi regulators. Is that really Uber's fault? The regulators'? The customers? Just how far do we want to take this whole idea of being reponsible for our competitors' mental health, or that of our vendors?
    - knuththetruth 8y ago
      I don’t know how far, but possibly beyond glib dismissals of people’s suicides as a “real tear-jerker.”
      - CamperBob2 8y ago
        (Shrug) It's an appropriate response, I think, to the use of peoples' suicides for purposes of overt emotional manipulation. Your beef is with the taxi cartels and their click-hungry sympathizers in the media, not with me. They started it.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> cab drivers are committing suicide because of their debts This isn't the motivation for this regulation. If it was, the same City Councilman who proposed this cap wouldn't have shot down a minimum-wage proposal for cab drivers. Remember: most medallions aren't owned by cab drivers. And cab drivers don't donate.
admax88q 8y ago
Reflief shouldn't be protecting their broken business model and the corrupt medallion system. This isn't a problem technology is causing, its loan sharks locking taxi drivers into debt with the insane prices of a medallion. I'd rather see the medallion system removed, debt relief provided to the drivers and a more fair congestion tax or similar to control the number of cars.

by pradn 8y ago

lotsofpulp 8y ago

That issue is present with everyone else also, not just cab drivers. I don't see why they should be singled out for relief. If we want to provide a safety net for people obviated by technology, that has nothing to do with Uber or Lyft.

tzs 8y ago
One difference between taxis and "everyone else" is that with everyone else, the business that does in their business is usually legal. Uber and Lyft were largely operating illegally when they started in most cities. They ignored expensive licensing requirements. They ignored safety regulations. They ignored insurance requirements. They ignored price controls on fares. They ignored requirements to accommodate disabled people. Taxi companies who were obeying all these rules (which all imposed costs on the taxi companies that Uber and Lyft did not have) had a reasonable expectation, perhaps even a right, to expect the city would force Uber and Lyft to follow those rules too, or would shut them down. But the cities didn't, so I think a good case can be made that the cities owe the taxi drivers a bailout.
- bln_wgc 8y ago
  Uber and Lyft operated 100% legally in NYC from their inception. The NYC ride-sharing market is not like other US cities, which allow peer-to-peer ridesharing. All rideshare drivers in NYC are licensed by the TLC, and Uber and Lyft are licensed TLC operators. Uber and Lyft beat NYC taxis fair and square - they used the existing TLC regulations (with the overhead required) and won out because of being a better product.
newfocogi 8y ago
I think this concept is address well in Neil Postman's "Five Things We Need to Know About Technological Change" [1] [1] http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/postman.pdf http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/pos...
pradn 8y ago
Perfect is the enemy of the good. Why not help some people on the way to helping a wider group? I do agree that we need wider-ranging policies for people displaced by technological change. It would help people find work and society make use of their talents.

CamperBob2 8y ago

The idea that Uber, or any other company, is responsible for someone else committing suicide is both bizarre and offensive.

pradn 8y ago
From https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/nyregion/a-taxi-driver-took-his-own-life-his-family-blames-ubers-influence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/nyregion/a-taxi-driver-to...: Immigrants from Romania, the couple had bought their New York City taxi medallion nearly three decades ago. Lately, it had been difficult to find fares. Her husband worked 12-hour shifts, but brought home less money. He was worried about the plunging value of their once-lucrative medallion and frustrated about Uber’s takeover of the industry. On a cold day in March, Mr. Ochisor hanged himself in his garage in Queens. His family blames the growing hopelessness he felt over his fortunes as a taxi driver.
- CamperBob2 8y ago
  Yeah, a real tear-jerker. So, let's fix this. How do you propose to write a law that defines exactly when responsibility for suicide attaches? In this case, Mr. Ochisor's customers were so desperate for an alternative to his three-decade-old business that they turned to a startup company that works by (literally) dodging taxi regulators. Is that really Uber's fault? The regulators'? The customers? Just how far do we want to take this whole idea of being reponsible for our competitors' mental health, or that of our vendors?
  - knuththetruth 8y ago
    I don’t know how far, but possibly beyond glib dismissals of people’s suicides as a “real tear-jerker.”
    - CamperBob2 8y ago
      (Shrug) It's an appropriate response, I think, to the use of peoples' suicides for purposes of overt emotional manipulation. Your beef is with the taxi cartels and their click-hungry sympathizers in the media, not with me. They started it.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> cab drivers are committing suicide because of their debts This isn't the motivation for this regulation. If it was, the same City Councilman who proposed this cap wouldn't have shot down a minimum-wage proposal for cab drivers. Remember: most medallions aren't owned by cab drivers. And cab drivers don't donate.

admax88q 8y ago

Reflief shouldn't be protecting their broken business model and the corrupt medallion system. This isn't a problem technology is causing, its loan sharks locking taxi drivers into debt with the insane prices of a medallion. I'd rather see the medallion system removed, debt relief provided to the drivers and a more fair congestion tax or similar to control the number of cars.