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You can't even compare the two, the US is still dealing with systemic racism, but we are dealing with it, China is institutionalizing it. For example, Chinese c

by d0lph 8y ago

You can't even compare the two, the US is still dealing with systemic racism, but we are dealing with it, China is institutionalizing it. For example, Chinese citizens can be _tortured_ for political views, protesting or religious beliefs, real torture, they apparently use electrocution. China is not allowed to do what it wants to its citizens, that is the load of crap. Read the wikipedia article and then tell me how ignorant I am: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China Or this one if you need more: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34592336 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34592336

StavrosK 8y ago
> real torture As opposed to "enhanced interrogation techniques"? One thing the West certainly does better than the East is marketing.
- d0lph 8y ago
  The US tortures its enemies, China its enemies and citizens.
  - StavrosK 8y ago
    That makes zero difference to me. I find them both immoral, not to mention that enemies of the US might include some Chinese people, making the two sets identical. You're saying that only the US can torture person X, but China can't.
    - Nav_Panel 8y ago
      This is an interesting position, regardless of the fact that the two sets (who the US torture vs who the Chinese torture) are clearly not identical. Why might a government torturing its own citizens be morally equivalent to a government torturing the citizens of other countries?
      - StavrosK 8y ago
        Because torturing anyone is immoral? Do you seriously need justification? Does this moral position of "we can torture foreigners, it's fine" seem fucked up to anyone else, or is it just me?
        Nav_Panel 8y ago
        Keep in mind that questioning whether the two are "morally equivalent" is not the same as saying "one is right and the other is wrong". It intuitively feels, to me, "more bad" for a country to torture its own citizens than for a country to torture citizens of its enemies (although both are still bad). Thus, I'd want to hear a justification that "actually, no, both are the same degree of bad."
        StavrosK 8y ago
        I think the onus falls on you to justify why torturing an enemy is "more good" than torturing a citizen. To me, torturing someone is axiomatically immoral, and the fact that they're a citizen of a specific country doesn't make any difference to that. I don't find it "less bad" to torture someone one day before they get their green card than one day after.
        Nav_Panel 8y ago
        Hold up, "less bad" is not necessarily the same as "more good". Breaking my arm and breaking my neck are both bad, but one is worse than the other. It seems difficult to justify that "breaking my arm is more good than breaking my neck". I don't necessarily agree that the onus is on me (you were the one to initially bring it up here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17717319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17717319 and I also gave my justification, which is that it feels intuitively different), but I can throw out some ideas as to why. I said it was interesting for a reason... 1) Perhaps it's a moral foundations (Haidt) difference: a state torturing its own citizens violates a moral "loyalty" principle as well as a moral "care" (harm avoidance) principle. Thus, it feels worse IF you ascribe to loyalty as a valid moral foundation. Haidt suggests modern liberals heavily elevate the "care" and "fairness" principles over the others, suggesting we might have a deep value difference causing our different opinions. 2) A more political perspective: the US constitution contains certain rights which all citizens are granted (note that US citizenship is defined as a "right to have rights"). See the passage (emphasis mine): "we hold these truths to be self-evident... that [all men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". One could argue that for the US government to torture its citizens would be additionally unjust, on the grounds that it violates these constitutional rights, specifically (I'd argue) that of Liberty. It's a violation of a social contract as well as a violation of an ethical principle, making it a worse injustice. Note that the authority here is granted to "[the] Creator", intensifying the ethical severity of violating this social contract. 3) Could also make some lower-Kohlberg-level arguments about this, but they're less fun and interesting.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> You can't even compare the two, the US is still dealing with systemic racism, but we are dealing with it, China is institutionalizing it. At the moment, so is the US. There is some measure of hope in some corners that this is an aberration that will be brief at least at the federal level, and that the reversal of it at the federal level will eventually negate any adverse trends at other levels, but that's hope, not established fact.
- d0lph 8y ago
  China may have up to 1 million muslims in concentration camps, what has the US done in the last 50 years that is even comparable? I'm reading so many people defending China, I have to think it's because they haven't done any research, and assume China's not that bad.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > China may have up to 1 million muslims in concentration camps, what has the US done in the last 50 years that is even comparable? I didn't say that the US did anything comparable to that, I said that the argument that the big-picture difference between the two was that China was institutionalizing systemic racism while the US was addressing it was, whatever the past or hoped-for future of the US might be, currently inaccurate on the US side. > I'm reading so many people defending China, I have to think it's because they haven't done any research, and assume China's not that bad. Maybe somewhere, but the post you are responding to said not one word about China (other than a quote for context from the post it was responding to), either in defense or otherwise.
    - d0lph 8y ago
      How does the US institutionalize racism? If anything we implement tons of policies with the opposite goal. The article is about tariffs on China, this is thread is all about China, you responded to a post about human rights violations in China. I'm not saying the US is perfect, but compared to China right now the US is .
DEADBEEFC0FFEE 8y ago
Of course you can compare them, how else will you see the difference?

by d0lph 8y ago

StavrosK 8y ago

> real torture As opposed to "enhanced interrogation techniques"? One thing the West certainly does better than the East is marketing.

d0lph 8y ago
The US tortures its enemies, China its enemies and citizens.
- StavrosK 8y ago
  That makes zero difference to me. I find them both immoral, not to mention that enemies of the US might include some Chinese people, making the two sets identical. You're saying that only the US can torture person X, but China can't.
  - Nav_Panel 8y ago
    This is an interesting position, regardless of the fact that the two sets (who the US torture vs who the Chinese torture) are clearly not identical. Why might a government torturing its own citizens be morally equivalent to a government torturing the citizens of other countries?
    - StavrosK 8y ago
      Because torturing anyone is immoral? Do you seriously need justification? Does this moral position of "we can torture foreigners, it's fine" seem fucked up to anyone else, or is it just me?
      - Nav_Panel 8y ago
        Keep in mind that questioning whether the two are "morally equivalent" is not the same as saying "one is right and the other is wrong". It intuitively feels, to me, "more bad" for a country to torture its own citizens than for a country to torture citizens of its enemies (although both are still bad). Thus, I'd want to hear a justification that "actually, no, both are the same degree of bad."
        StavrosK 8y ago
        I think the onus falls on you to justify why torturing an enemy is "more good" than torturing a citizen. To me, torturing someone is axiomatically immoral, and the fact that they're a citizen of a specific country doesn't make any difference to that. I don't find it "less bad" to torture someone one day before they get their green card than one day after.
        Nav_Panel 8y ago
        Hold up, "less bad" is not necessarily the same as "more good". Breaking my arm and breaking my neck are both bad, but one is worse than the other. It seems difficult to justify that "breaking my arm is more good than breaking my neck". I don't necessarily agree that the onus is on me (you were the one to initially bring it up here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17717319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17717319 and I also gave my justification, which is that it feels intuitively different), but I can throw out some ideas as to why. I said it was interesting for a reason... 1) Perhaps it's a moral foundations (Haidt) difference: a state torturing its own citizens violates a moral "loyalty" principle as well as a moral "care" (harm avoidance) principle. Thus, it feels worse IF you ascribe to loyalty as a valid moral foundation. Haidt suggests modern liberals heavily elevate the "care" and "fairness" principles over the others, suggesting we might have a deep value difference causing our different opinions. 2) A more political perspective: the US constitution contains certain rights which all citizens are granted (note that US citizenship is defined as a "right to have rights"). See the passage (emphasis mine): "we hold these truths to be self-evident... that [all men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". One could argue that for the US government to torture its citizens would be additionally unjust, on the grounds that it violates these constitutional rights, specifically (I'd argue) that of Liberty. It's a violation of a social contract as well as a violation of an ethical principle, making it a worse injustice. Note that the authority here is granted to "[the] Creator", intensifying the ethical severity of violating this social contract. 3) Could also make some lower-Kohlberg-level arguments about this, but they're less fun and interesting.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> You can't even compare the two, the US is still dealing with systemic racism, but we are dealing with it, China is institutionalizing it. At the moment, so is the US. There is some measure of hope in some corners that this is an aberration that will be brief at least at the federal level, and that the reversal of it at the federal level will eventually negate any adverse trends at other levels, but that's hope, not established fact.

d0lph 8y ago
China may have up to 1 million muslims in concentration camps, what has the US done in the last 50 years that is even comparable? I'm reading so many people defending China, I have to think it's because they haven't done any research, and assume China's not that bad.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > China may have up to 1 million muslims in concentration camps, what has the US done in the last 50 years that is even comparable? I didn't say that the US did anything comparable to that, I said that the argument that the big-picture difference between the two was that China was institutionalizing systemic racism while the US was addressing it was, whatever the past or hoped-for future of the US might be, currently inaccurate on the US side. > I'm reading so many people defending China, I have to think it's because they haven't done any research, and assume China's not that bad. Maybe somewhere, but the post you are responding to said not one word about China (other than a quote for context from the post it was responding to), either in defense or otherwise.
  - d0lph 8y ago
    How does the US institutionalize racism? If anything we implement tons of policies with the opposite goal. The article is about tariffs on China, this is thread is all about China, you responded to a post about human rights violations in China. I'm not saying the US is perfect, but compared to China right now the US is .

DEADBEEFC0FFEE 8y ago

Of course you can compare them, how else will you see the difference?