7 ms·

Actually EU is negotiating 0-tarriff with the US and a great realignment is occurring against China.

d0lph 8y ago
China is a human rights nightmare, they literally have concentration camps. I think ethically the US shouldn't even do trade with China.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  But without the US trade, it'd be much worse because much more people would've starved to death. Don't forget that behind a government, there still are people.
- gurkendoktor 8y ago
  Since the situation in Xinjiang has not hit mainstream media yet, these are the camps the parent poster refers to: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-re-education-muslims-ramadan-xinjiang-eat-pork-alcohol-communist-xi-jinping-a8357966.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-re-educa... The estimated number of inmates keeps growing by the week. I think it's more accurate to call them re-education camps, but it's an issue that I wish more countries would push China on. I don't get why our (German) government spent so much time on negotiating the Liu Xiaobo issue instead.
- microdrum 8y ago
  Exactly. Also worth studying Mao's Great Famine. Great podcast on this released yesterday: http://www.econtalk.org/frank-dikotter-on-maos-great-famine http://www.econtalk.org/frank-dikotter-on-maos-great-famine
  - d0lph 8y ago
    Not sure why you're being downvoted, you can argue to what degree Mao was responsible, but in the end China's authoritarian government was at least partially responsible. They estimate 20 and 43 million died, if not caused by, then exacerbated by policies implemented under Mao. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign
    - microdrum 8y ago
      Can these wiki links be viewed within China? Can someone try?
      - d0lph 8y ago
        According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Wikipedia#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Wikipedia#China "Since June 2015, all Wikipedias redirect HTTP requests to the corresponding HTTPS addresses, thereby making encryption mandatory for all users. As a result, Chinese censors cannot see which specific pages an individual is viewing, and therefore cannot block a specific subset of pages (such as Ai Weiwei or Tiananmen Square) as they did in past years. As a result, Beijing chose to block the whole Chinese Wikipedia"
- pm90 8y ago
  What a load of crap. Ignoring the fantastic abuses that the US commits everyday against its minority and poor folks, disenfranchising and imprisoning them and basically kicking them out of regular society... China is a sovereign nation and has every right to Govern itself the way it wants to. They may not have the same system and freedom that the West is used to, but authoritarianism has been the norm in China for centuries. The one time they tried to be a Republic: Civil War happened (with a LOT of Western intervention, no less). I think ethically you shouldn't be making judgements about another country when you clearly know so little about it.
  - wetpaws 8y ago
    >China is a sovereign nation and has every right to Govern itself the way it wants to Exactly like North Korea does, but that's not a valid reason to approve whatever they do.
  - friedman23 8y ago
    > China is a sovereign nation Is this how you justify concentration camps?
    - pm90 8y ago
      No. I'm merely pointing out that the Chinese Government has certain leeway in which to run their country. Concentration camps must and should be condemned and there are ways to achieve that: targeted sanctions on entities associated with those activities. That's why we have sanctions against Russian oligarchs involved in criminal activities and not against the entire Russian Federation. What I'm arguing against is penalizing the whole country with a trade embargo. That is just bullshit coming from someone who understands very little about how international relations work.
      - d0lph 8y ago
        I don't think we should buy goods produced by actual slave labor, I'm sure there are a lot of financial incentives with slave labor though.
      - 8y ago
- DEADBEEFC0FFEE 8y ago
  I don't disagree, and I would add that the US has some very dubious incarnation practices. Getting locked up for minor crimes, and running prisons for profit is unethical in my mind. Your point is very valid though.
Leary 8y ago
But the negotiations left out the most important sector, which is automobiles. The US is still pursuing a "national security" review on the automobile industry under Section 232.
- microdrum 8y ago
  EU has floated 0 tariffs on autos, which they've never done before https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/eu-could-agree-a-us-autos-tariff-deal-despite-trump-threats.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/eu-could-agree-a-us-autos-ta...
martythemaniak 8y ago
Well, on one hand we have the EU and Canada with an actual free-trade deal, the TPP is happening and China is spending hundreds of billions in trade-related infrastructure throughout the world. On the other hand we Trumps incredible negotiating skills. Same ones he used to bring Kim Jong Un to heel and denuclearize North Korea.

China is a human rights nightmare, they literally have concentration camps. I think ethically the US shouldn't even do trade with China.

TomMarius 8y ago
But without the US trade, it'd be much worse because much more people would've starved to death. Don't forget that behind a government, there still are people.
gurkendoktor 8y ago
Since the situation in Xinjiang has not hit mainstream media yet, these are the camps the parent poster refers to: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-re-education-muslims-ramadan-xinjiang-eat-pork-alcohol-communist-xi-jinping-a8357966.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-re-educa... The estimated number of inmates keeps growing by the week. I think it's more accurate to call them re-education camps, but it's an issue that I wish more countries would push China on. I don't get why our (German) government spent so much time on negotiating the Liu Xiaobo issue instead.
microdrum 8y ago
Exactly. Also worth studying Mao's Great Famine. Great podcast on this released yesterday: http://www.econtalk.org/frank-dikotter-on-maos-great-famine http://www.econtalk.org/frank-dikotter-on-maos-great-famine
- d0lph 8y ago
  Not sure why you're being downvoted, you can argue to what degree Mao was responsible, but in the end China's authoritarian government was at least partially responsible. They estimate 20 and 43 million died, if not caused by, then exacerbated by policies implemented under Mao. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign
  - microdrum 8y ago
    Can these wiki links be viewed within China? Can someone try?
    - d0lph 8y ago
      According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Wikipedia#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Wikipedia#China "Since June 2015, all Wikipedias redirect HTTP requests to the corresponding HTTPS addresses, thereby making encryption mandatory for all users. As a result, Chinese censors cannot see which specific pages an individual is viewing, and therefore cannot block a specific subset of pages (such as Ai Weiwei or Tiananmen Square) as they did in past years. As a result, Beijing chose to block the whole Chinese Wikipedia"
pm90 8y ago
What a load of crap. Ignoring the fantastic abuses that the US commits everyday against its minority and poor folks, disenfranchising and imprisoning them and basically kicking them out of regular society... China is a sovereign nation and has every right to Govern itself the way it wants to. They may not have the same system and freedom that the West is used to, but authoritarianism has been the norm in China for centuries. The one time they tried to be a Republic: Civil War happened (with a LOT of Western intervention, no less). I think ethically you shouldn't be making judgements about another country when you clearly know so little about it.
- wetpaws 8y ago
  >China is a sovereign nation and has every right to Govern itself the way it wants to Exactly like North Korea does, but that's not a valid reason to approve whatever they do.
- friedman23 8y ago
  > China is a sovereign nation Is this how you justify concentration camps?
  - pm90 8y ago
    No. I'm merely pointing out that the Chinese Government has certain leeway in which to run their country. Concentration camps must and should be condemned and there are ways to achieve that: targeted sanctions on entities associated with those activities. That's why we have sanctions against Russian oligarchs involved in criminal activities and not against the entire Russian Federation. What I'm arguing against is penalizing the whole country with a trade embargo. That is just bullshit coming from someone who understands very little about how international relations work.
    - d0lph 8y ago
      I don't think we should buy goods produced by actual slave labor, I'm sure there are a lot of financial incentives with slave labor though.
    - 8y ago
DEADBEEFC0FFEE 8y ago
I don't disagree, and I would add that the US has some very dubious incarnation practices. Getting locked up for minor crimes, and running prisons for profit is unethical in my mind. Your point is very valid though.

Leary 8y ago

But the negotiations left out the most important sector, which is automobiles. The US is still pursuing a "national security" review on the automobile industry under Section 232.

microdrum 8y ago
EU has floated 0 tariffs on autos, which they've never done before https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/eu-could-agree-a-us-autos-tariff-deal-despite-trump-threats.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/eu-could-agree-a-us-autos-ta...

martythemaniak 8y ago

Well, on one hand we have the EU and Canada with an actual free-trade deal, the TPP is happening and China is spending hundreds of billions in trade-related infrastructure throughout the world. On the other hand we Trumps incredible negotiating skills. Same ones he used to bring Kim Jong Un to heel and denuclearize North Korea.