4 ms·

Sweden actually has a similar problem even without the bail system. Most people get released awaiting trial, depending on severity of the crime, risk of influen

by jacobr 8y ago

Sweden actually has a similar problem even without the bail system. Most people get released awaiting trial, depending on severity of the crime, risk of influencing the case, etc. The ones who don't end up incarcerated with way worse conditions than regular prisons while waiting for the trial. You might end up with a sentence of 1 year after already spending most of it in an insitution with limited visitation rights, none of the rehabilitation, education and leisure available in regular prisons.

candiodari 8y ago
All European countries have a system that is sort-of a "reverse bail" problem. You can become a "civil party" to a complaint that you submit to the police. If you have money, you can force that complaint to get before a criminal judge, who is forced to ask you (the civil party) why you want this person criminally punished (e.g. jail), and listen to your response. So poor people cannot complain about things like government excess or police brutality, since those complaints get thrown out. Nor can they effectively get police help, except in very severe cases. But a rich person can drag you in front of a criminal court for not wiping the pavement in front of your apartment often enough. This is a bail system. The money you put down, you get back if the person gets convicted. Additionally, in some countries the defendant, if convicted, will need to pay your lawyer expenses (again, if they are convicted). Pretty much all of Europe.
- nemetroid 8y ago
  > All European countries > criminal judge Almost all of Europe uses civil law, where there is no distinction between civil and criminal courts. > But a rich person can drag you in front of a criminal court for not wiping the pavement in front of your apartment often enough. > This is a bail system. The money you put down, you get back if the person gets convicted. This is far removed from reality as far as I am aware. Please provide sources.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    > Almost all of Europe uses civil law, where there is no distinction between civil and criminal courts. Obviously not true. In fact, this is so obviously wrong I don't know where to start. Differences between civil and criminal courts: * different hierarchy * different powers (criminal court can, say, order imprisonment) * different judges * different parties (defendant vs prosecution for criminal, defendant vs complainant for civil court) * different standards of proof * different rights (e.g. the right to a jury trial in some countries) Even this barely scratches the surface of the differences. > This is far removed from reality as far as I am aware. Please provide sources. Start reading here, it describes part of the procedure: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partie_civile_en_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partie_civile_en_France Google suggests this as an English alternative: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1468-2230.1958.tb00483.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1468-2230.... (note there is "partie civile" and "action civile". They are NOT the same, aren't directly related. Specifically it is NOT the case that the "partie civile" is the complainant in an "action civile", as one might think. Keep reading) The procedure is, generally speaking: 1) complain to the police, get a record or the complaint 2) with the record (which is a number), go to an "investigation judge" (no need to prove anything or ...), declare your intent to become "partie civile", register your lawyer, etc. He will tell you the amount of the "bail" for the case (which is going to be ~1000 euro. It differs from case to case, but not much) 3) pay the "bail" to the "griffe" (sort-of-kind-of the secretary of the court, they have an office in every courthouse) and register it 4) take said registration back to the judge you registered with, judge writes an order 5) write the prosecutor to deliver the order of the investigative judge Now, the prosecutor is forced to bring the case before criminal court within a certain amount of time, and is forced to demand a nonzero punishment for whatever the complaint is (in fact this is one of the ways they get out from under it: they demand ridiculous punishments so the judge will rule against them). The non-obvious and terrible thing for the victims of this system is misjudging the motivation of the police/prosecution (technically there is a distinction between the police and the people that do this, but it's essentially a different department of the same organization...). You might think the police will try to punish the guilty party, if there is one. That's technically true, but only in the following sense : they will try to get a conviction, and with this procedure REGARDLESS of their judgement there is a guilty party. If they think they can get a conviction, odds are VERY good they'll pursue seriously. Things that do NOT influence whether they pursue (and therefore do not influence whether you get convicted) include reasonableness, whether you're nice to the police, whether there's significant damages, whether anyone else was involved, whether the police promised not to do that (which they do, frankly almost always, then bring the case anyway and get the conviction), ... An evil way to get ahead in elections in France: use this system to get your niece to complain against your competition, then point out (perfectly accurately) that your opponent is under investigation for terrible crime X. They will go free, eventually (or maybe not), but by that time it has long since stopped mattering.

by jacobr 8y ago

candiodari 8y ago

All European countries have a system that is sort-of a "reverse bail" problem. You can become a "civil party" to a complaint that you submit to the police. If you have money, you can force that complaint to get before a criminal judge, who is forced to ask you (the civil party) why you want this person criminally punished (e.g. jail), and listen to your response. So poor people cannot complain about things like government excess or police brutality, since those complaints get thrown out. Nor can they effectively get police help, except in very severe cases. But a rich person can drag you in front of a criminal court for not wiping the pavement in front of your apartment often enough. This is a bail system. The money you put down, you get back if the person gets convicted. Additionally, in some countries the defendant, if convicted, will need to pay your lawyer expenses (again, if they are convicted). Pretty much all of Europe.

nemetroid 8y ago
> All European countries > criminal judge Almost all of Europe uses civil law, where there is no distinction between civil and criminal courts. > But a rich person can drag you in front of a criminal court for not wiping the pavement in front of your apartment often enough. > This is a bail system. The money you put down, you get back if the person gets convicted. This is far removed from reality as far as I am aware. Please provide sources.
- candiodari 8y ago
  > Almost all of Europe uses civil law, where there is no distinction between civil and criminal courts. Obviously not true. In fact, this is so obviously wrong I don't know where to start. Differences between civil and criminal courts: * different hierarchy * different powers (criminal court can, say, order imprisonment) * different judges * different parties (defendant vs prosecution for criminal, defendant vs complainant for civil court) * different standards of proof * different rights (e.g. the right to a jury trial in some countries) Even this barely scratches the surface of the differences. > This is far removed from reality as far as I am aware. Please provide sources. Start reading here, it describes part of the procedure: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partie_civile_en_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partie_civile_en_France Google suggests this as an English alternative: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1468-2230.1958.tb00483.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1468-2230.... (note there is "partie civile" and "action civile". They are NOT the same, aren't directly related. Specifically it is NOT the case that the "partie civile" is the complainant in an "action civile", as one might think. Keep reading) The procedure is, generally speaking: 1) complain to the police, get a record or the complaint 2) with the record (which is a number), go to an "investigation judge" (no need to prove anything or ...), declare your intent to become "partie civile", register your lawyer, etc. He will tell you the amount of the "bail" for the case (which is going to be ~1000 euro. It differs from case to case, but not much) 3) pay the "bail" to the "griffe" (sort-of-kind-of the secretary of the court, they have an office in every courthouse) and register it 4) take said registration back to the judge you registered with, judge writes an order 5) write the prosecutor to deliver the order of the investigative judge Now, the prosecutor is forced to bring the case before criminal court within a certain amount of time, and is forced to demand a nonzero punishment for whatever the complaint is (in fact this is one of the ways they get out from under it: they demand ridiculous punishments so the judge will rule against them). The non-obvious and terrible thing for the victims of this system is misjudging the motivation of the police/prosecution (technically there is a distinction between the police and the people that do this, but it's essentially a different department of the same organization...). You might think the police will try to punish the guilty party, if there is one. That's technically true, but only in the following sense : they will try to get a conviction, and with this procedure REGARDLESS of their judgement there is a guilty party. If they think they can get a conviction, odds are VERY good they'll pursue seriously. Things that do NOT influence whether they pursue (and therefore do not influence whether you get convicted) include reasonableness, whether you're nice to the police, whether there's significant damages, whether anyone else was involved, whether the police promised not to do that (which they do, frankly almost always, then bring the case anyway and get the conviction), ... An evil way to get ahead in elections in France: use this system to get your niece to complain against your competition, then point out (perfectly accurately) that your opponent is under investigation for terrible crime X. They will go free, eventually (or maybe not), but by that time it has long since stopped mattering.