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I'd go for the black woman, as she had far more adversity to overcome to get into that position and is therefore better (harder working, less likely to have got

I'd go for the black woman, as she had far more adversity to overcome to get into that position and is therefore better (harder working, less likely to have got in via the old boys network) Of course I wouldn't really, I'm just using your logic.

islon 8y ago
A research done in Brazil (where racial quotas for universities were implemented) showed that students that got in through quotas performed better, on average, than "normal" students. So I guess you are right.
- volkisch 8y ago
  Can you cite your sources? Br has been in the whole trend of positive discrimination for a long time and I doubt this study isn't biased as most of their society when it comes to everyone that isn't "white".
- gsaga 8y ago
  In india the opposite is true. A significant fraction of student admitted through race quota fail and drop out. Now they want to reduce the exam difficulty for them!
- d0100 8y ago
  Source?
tomp 8y ago
Yeah that's a good point. Nassim Taleb elaborates on a similar one here: https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surgeons-23b0e2cf6d52 https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surg... Although technically that's a different effect. Affirmative action is, AFAIK, meant to counter negative bias before (i.e. positive discrimination at university entry is meant to counter worse education and poverty at a primary- and high-school level), whereas you're talking about overcoming biases after graduation ("old boys network" etc).
dandare 8y ago
If she did not overcome the adversity after her admission there is no reason to choose her, her outcome as a doctor is still affected by the adversity. If she did overcome the adversity after admission, we must ask what prevented her from overcoming it before admission. Just philosophizing.
- lucideer 8y ago
  That's an oversimplification, as adversity is not a binary, and is highly qualitative. However, to take the bait and make an attempt at analysing it: - (race/gender-based) adversity in education usually has the effect of reducing your chances of succeeding in exams, admissions, etc. - (race/gender-based) adversity in professional practice usually has the effect of reducing your chances of acquiring customers, partners, progression within an organisation. So while she may still face after admission, that adversity should have a much more significant affect on her paycheck than on her medical performance.
  - dandare 8y ago
    > (race/gender-based) adversity in education usually has the effect of reducing your chances of succeeding in exams, admissions, etc. How would that work? If we talked about oral exams or job interview then surely there can be a bias. But written exams? I can't imagine how it would be affected by your race. What can be however affected is your access to quality education prior to the admission, which will affect your admission changes, which should not be an issue after the admission because now you are getting the same quality education as others. While I can imagine that socio-economic issues (like being black=poor) may affect your access to quality education prior to the admission, I can not imagine how being a woman would affect your access to quality education. Maybe stereotypes in case of STEM?

islon 8y ago

A research done in Brazil (where racial quotas for universities were implemented) showed that students that got in through quotas performed better, on average, than "normal" students. So I guess you are right.

volkisch 8y ago
Can you cite your sources? Br has been in the whole trend of positive discrimination for a long time and I doubt this study isn't biased as most of their society when it comes to everyone that isn't "white".
gsaga 8y ago
In india the opposite is true. A significant fraction of student admitted through race quota fail and drop out. Now they want to reduce the exam difficulty for them!
d0100 8y ago
Source?

tomp 8y ago

Yeah that's a good point. Nassim Taleb elaborates on a similar one here: https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surgeons-23b0e2cf6d52 https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surg... Although technically that's a different effect. Affirmative action is, AFAIK, meant to counter negative bias before (i.e. positive discrimination at university entry is meant to counter worse education and poverty at a primary- and high-school level), whereas you're talking about overcoming biases after graduation ("old boys network" etc).

dandare 8y ago

If she did not overcome the adversity after her admission there is no reason to choose her, her outcome as a doctor is still affected by the adversity. If she did overcome the adversity after admission, we must ask what prevented her from overcoming it before admission. Just philosophizing.

lucideer 8y ago
That's an oversimplification, as adversity is not a binary, and is highly qualitative. However, to take the bait and make an attempt at analysing it: - (race/gender-based) adversity in education usually has the effect of reducing your chances of succeeding in exams, admissions, etc. - (race/gender-based) adversity in professional practice usually has the effect of reducing your chances of acquiring customers, partners, progression within an organisation. So while she may still face after admission, that adversity should have a much more significant affect on her paycheck than on her medical performance.
- dandare 8y ago
  > (race/gender-based) adversity in education usually has the effect of reducing your chances of succeeding in exams, admissions, etc. How would that work? If we talked about oral exams or job interview then surely there can be a bias. But written exams? I can't imagine how it would be affected by your race. What can be however affected is your access to quality education prior to the admission, which will affect your admission changes, which should not be an issue after the admission because now you are getting the same quality education as others. While I can imagine that socio-economic issues (like being black=poor) may affect your access to quality education prior to the admission, I can not imagine how being a woman would affect your access to quality education. Maybe stereotypes in case of STEM?