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This article mainly seems to focus on the outcome for the bottom tier of high school students going to college. Top tier students may do much better. A top st

by geebee 19y ago

This article mainly seems to focus on the outcome for the bottom tier of high school students going to college. Top tier students may do much better. A top student who goes to a top law, med, or business school is probably getting a trememdous ROI on education. Interestingly, neither category describes the startup crowd. Hackers represents an unusual group - people who are able to study the hardest subjects in college and grad school, but who choose to work in such an unregulated and loose culture that nobody strictly needs a degree at all. Law or Medicine require a grad degree - and as a result, the grad degree is very valuable (it's a gateway into the cartel that controls these services). Nursing also requires a degree. Programming doesn't require a degree, but can't be done in any innovative way by someone who isn't smart enough to get a math/science/or engineering degree. It leads to an interesting kind of distain for formal education in a group that often has impressive formal credentials.

donw 19y ago
I think the disdain for academia comes from having to participate in the cesspool which 'liberal arts' have become. The words 'liberal arts' used to describe someone who was skilled in both the sciences and the humanities; now it just identifies people who hated real work so much that they opted for the degree program that had 'Finger Painting' listed as an upper-division course. Ok, maybe I'm being a bit hard on the Liberal Arts people, but when you busting your tail to finish classes that are actually hard, watching people coast through in easy degree programs can be very, very demoralizing; in fact, I was quite bitter towards academia for a few years because of it. This almost caused me to give up on wanting to get a graduate degree, even though I love the subject, because I never wanted to become one of 'those' people, and the only thing that kept me going is that grad school is a really, really good time to try and start a company.
- nostrademons 19y ago
  I went to a liberal arts college. "Liberal arts" still describes someone skilled in both sciences and humanites...sort of. What tends to happen is that the folks who major in hard sciences at liberal arts colleges become those people, while those who major in the liberal arts become basically unemployable. My fellow math/physics/CS majors (there were only about 10 of us per department per year, so we all sorta combined socially...) used to comment ironically that 50% of Amherst students never take any math or hard science course, yet it is impossible for a science major to avoid taking any humanities or social science courses. Two things you need to remember about this: 1.) The folks who major in English and take only easy courses will get their comeuppance in the job market, which now basically requires quantitative skills. 2.) Many of those folks go to liberal arts colleges because they have a particular career track they know they want to do, and they're fully willing to make the financial sacrifices for that. For example, one of my friends wanted to be a professor of English, specializing in poetry, from the day he got to college. Another wanted to be a librarian. They're willing to live like grad students until they're in their 40s to do so, and to take the financial hit afterwards that comes with their chosen professions. I can respect that.
- justindz 19y ago
  When I was earning my CS degree, my program was transitioning away from the "liberal arts" college towards the "engineering" college. I came in on the tail end which still had more diversified course requirements. As a consequence, I picked up a minor in philosophy and ended up I think three hours short of a minor in creative writing. I've been very well served by this educational approach. I absolutely do NOT use my philosophy of quantum physics topical material at work. However, I do outperform some of my peers by having competent technical skills, competent people skills and the ability to work through very complex and abstract problems that have lead to generations of prior teams throwing up their hands in defeat. These are things I attribute to a diverse education. The people that coast through on a liberal arts degree, as you describe, are generally either coasting towards an entirely different type of life, enrolled in the wrong program (of their choosing) or the type of people that will end up succeeding regardless because they are talented, motivated, curious people. All of which is to say that I think you are hitting too hard on liberal arts, but not to blame you for that because the program you've experienced might have just been crappy and not a good one from which to generalize the argument.

by geebee 19y ago

donw 19y ago

I think the disdain for academia comes from having to participate in the cesspool which 'liberal arts' have become. The words 'liberal arts' used to describe someone who was skilled in both the sciences and the humanities; now it just identifies people who hated real work so much that they opted for the degree program that had 'Finger Painting' listed as an upper-division course. Ok, maybe I'm being a bit hard on the Liberal Arts people, but when you busting your tail to finish classes that are actually hard, watching people coast through in easy degree programs can be very, very demoralizing; in fact, I was quite bitter towards academia for a few years because of it. This almost caused me to give up on wanting to get a graduate degree, even though I love the subject, because I never wanted to become one of 'those' people, and the only thing that kept me going is that grad school is a really, really good time to try and start a company.

nostrademons 19y ago
I went to a liberal arts college. "Liberal arts" still describes someone skilled in both sciences and humanites...sort of. What tends to happen is that the folks who major in hard sciences at liberal arts colleges become those people, while those who major in the liberal arts become basically unemployable. My fellow math/physics/CS majors (there were only about 10 of us per department per year, so we all sorta combined socially...) used to comment ironically that 50% of Amherst students never take any math or hard science course, yet it is impossible for a science major to avoid taking any humanities or social science courses. Two things you need to remember about this: 1.) The folks who major in English and take only easy courses will get their comeuppance in the job market, which now basically requires quantitative skills. 2.) Many of those folks go to liberal arts colleges because they have a particular career track they know they want to do, and they're fully willing to make the financial sacrifices for that. For example, one of my friends wanted to be a professor of English, specializing in poetry, from the day he got to college. Another wanted to be a librarian. They're willing to live like grad students until they're in their 40s to do so, and to take the financial hit afterwards that comes with their chosen professions. I can respect that.
justindz 19y ago
When I was earning my CS degree, my program was transitioning away from the "liberal arts" college towards the "engineering" college. I came in on the tail end which still had more diversified course requirements. As a consequence, I picked up a minor in philosophy and ended up I think three hours short of a minor in creative writing. I've been very well served by this educational approach. I absolutely do NOT use my philosophy of quantum physics topical material at work. However, I do outperform some of my peers by having competent technical skills, competent people skills and the ability to work through very complex and abstract problems that have lead to generations of prior teams throwing up their hands in defeat. These are things I attribute to a diverse education. The people that coast through on a liberal arts degree, as you describe, are generally either coasting towards an entirely different type of life, enrolled in the wrong program (of their choosing) or the type of people that will end up succeeding regardless because they are talented, motivated, curious people. All of which is to say that I think you are hitting too hard on liberal arts, but not to blame you for that because the program you've experienced might have just been crappy and not a good one from which to generalize the argument.