8 ms·

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schoolin

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, relationship or mental issues, etc...), also which a school can do little to help with. Nothing proved this to me more than seeing half the class not turn in the easiest assignments.

ve55 8y ago
It was noticed that those who were in more higher education went on to achieve more success later in life (where success is often more income, but obviously many other things too). Over time some inferred causality from this: clearly the reason why some were successful was because they had a degree or even a masters or PhD. Thus in order to encourage success, it was decided that higher education should be strongly recommended as a means to achieve success. But what was not considered was that the causality here could be incorrect, instead showing us that people with traits optimized for success in life chose to enroll in higher education to use the additional knowledge and experience as a catalyst for their success (or they just otherwise loved academia or learning). Due to the extent of which this first hypothesis was treated as a fact, we are left with a system that attempts to reinforce it at many levels of society, ignoring the large cost that it takes.
- iampims 8y ago
  Same thing happened when someone noticed a correlation between successful kids and kids who have books at home. Someone ordered that every household should have books at home while failing to realize that correlation != causation…
  - seansmccullough 8y ago
    Same thing with home ownership.
    - alex_young 8y ago
      All of the above are great screens for wealth. Interesting coincidence.
      - cm2012 8y ago
        Parental income and educational achievments of children are almost perfectly correlated up until some very high wealth #. https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/ https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and...
        bzbarsky 8y ago
        Right, but so are parental income and parental achievement. And last I checked, there is a strong correlation between maternal educational achievement and child educational achievement even after controlling for various things including wealth. The correlation with paternal achievement when controlling for other factors is much lower.
        cm2012 8y ago
        Yes, this is why the idea of meritocracy sounds fair, but really isn't. Our merit is largely determined by factors outside of our control.
  - WalterBright 8y ago
    It's a well-known fact that your car will go faster if it is painted red.
    - anticensor 8y ago
      Did you mean "won't go faster"? This reads like an unmarked sarcasm.
      - ohBlahDeeBlah 8y ago
        He means red cars go faster, because the people who buy red cars always drive fast. This is a well-known platonic ideal.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  > But what was not considered was that the causality here could be incorrect How do you know this possibility has been left unconsidered?
  - em500 8y ago
    It was certainly not unconsidered by labor economists who have worked on such problems for the past half century (http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_educ_earnings.pdf http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_educ_earnings.pd...)
- em500 8y ago
  The causality / endogeneity problems with estimating returns to schooling (due to unobserved individual "ability" variables) have been known to economists if not politicians) since since at least the 1960s, probably even earlier, see e.g. the intro of http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_educ_earnings.pdf http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_educ_earnings.pd... Measuring the true returns of education is impossible, both on the individual level (we can't replay history with alternative choices) and the population level (clean randomisation on education is socially unacceptable), so all we have are approximations and methodological hacks (technical summary in linked summary paper). But such approximations typically found that "ability bias" was not all that large.
codingdave 8y ago
Where did you teach? I ask because I'm curious if that perspective is accurate at all types of post-secondary institutions, or if there is a difference between for-profits, private schools, community colleges, state schools, Ivy League, etc.
- closeparen 8y ago
  Elite institutions mostly filter these students out in the admissions process.
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
  I taught at a community college. It's likely the percentage of people I have run into (I am still on the advisory board) is quite different than the universities. Or it's possible it's this area or a combination of both. But my experience is anecdotal, and maybe the industry attracts video game players (my assumption) and this makes it more difficult demographic for success. The welders in the school seem to do great and generally succeed from what I have learned from the other departments. Maybe I was a sucky teacher? Who knows...
closeparen 8y ago
A lot of debate about education forgets that roughly half of public university students wash out. Graduation is a real accomplishment that sets you apart from many others who had the same opportunity and access.
- barrow-rider 8y ago
  To clarify the above: only 54.8% graduate in 6 years. Not 4 years... 6 years, meaning more debt. And that assumes they graduate, as opposed to just giving up. source: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/10/bill-gates-us-college-dropout-rates-are-tragic.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/10/bill-gates-us-college-dropou...
  - learc83 8y ago
    That doesn't necessarily mean more debt. It normally means they aren't taking a full load. Most schools charge by credit hour now until you go above 15, so the extra debt is mostly just 2 years extra interest.
epmaybe 8y ago
> also which a school can do little to help with. I think I disagree with you there. Debt - Schools could do better at financial assistance and in helping students better manage their finances. Relationship/mental issues - Schools could provide or increase their access to counselors/therapists. Peer mental health support is also becoming an attractive option. All of this being said, I'm not arguing that schools should help with these issues, rather just pointing out that there are solutions out there.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  I had a financial counselor at my college suggest I a put the last semester on a credit card. Fuck that woman, she is terrible person for even suggesting that. I dropped out in my final semester and quite frankly it hasn't mattered. College is insanely expensive, and at the end of the day for some careers is a waste of time.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Why is that a bad idea? You can get rid of credit card debt by filing bankruptcy, you can't get rid of student loan debt.
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      Because I didn't want to add more any more debt. And quite frankly at the time I figured anyone I would would want to work for would not care...sure that piece of paper on the wall is cute but it's a meaningless trophy after a while. What have you actually done and how can operate in a team environment is more important The "prestige" of the degree. Meh
      - scarface74 8y ago
        She isn’t a “terrible” person for suggesting it. It was the most logical thing for her to suggest knowing statistically the lifetime salary outcome for someone with a degree vs. no degree. Her job is to give general advice that works for “90% of the people 90% of the time”.
hmwhy 8y ago
> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their shortcomings than to make the effort to help them. I hope you are not thinking that you're doing society a favour by failing them instead of making the effort to figure out what their strengths are and/or if the way your teach, or what your employer preaches, may actually terrible. Maybe you shouldn't go back to teaching the next time you get "dragged back into" it.
- lucidone 8y ago
  Have you ever worked in academia? The humanities are a day care and delayed adulthood for those who would be better suited doing anything else with their time aside from one or two students in every classroom of ~40. For context, I left to work in the private sector with people who give a damn.
  - EADGBE 8y ago
    Shit, I was really hoping to leave the corporate life for academia; people who give a damn...
    - alexgmcm 8y ago
      Academia in Physics was pretty hardcore from what I see of my friends working in it. I left for CS after undergrad.
- topmonk 8y ago
  Armchair critic
- ppseafield 8y ago
  I don't agree 100% with the OP, but there are some students that are indeed just net negatives on the class and in general. My state used to pay 100% of your state college tuition if you maintained a 3.0 GPA. A lot of students in my freshman dorm stayed until the 30 hour re-evaluation period and then disappeared forever. They partied, never went to class, never studied, and withdrew from most of their classes. They'd regularly fall asleep in or oversleep for 11:00 classes. As a teacher, how do you handle these students? Many of them have not been raised to be on their own, and college is the first time they're let "off the leash". They're unprepared to be independent adults. Additionally some students fail the same class over and over, then keep retaking the class with no improvement. They keep asking the same questions, slow down the class, and make it more difficult for everyone else to learn. As a teacher how do you handle these students? Maybe you've already failed them twice. Maybe you've had extensive study groups, office hours, extra credit materials for these people, but they continue to do poorly. Some of them you suspect have learning disabilities or other mental problems that may always interfere with their ability to take your class. (Later the state college system changed it to 80% tuition for 3.5 GPA, and at least my college mandated a maximum of 5 withdrawls, which cut down on the problem some.)
eslaught 8y ago
As someone who spent a number of years doing free tutoring for CS classes (i.e. the kind where you can't choose who is coming in to see you), I strongly disagree with this. Yes, there were students who started and ended the quarter hopelessly overwhelmed. But there were also students who through determination and hard work and lots and lots of help managed to dig themselves out of that hole. Many of those students would not have "succeeded anyways", they succeeded specifically because of the help they got. If you mean to say that they succeed because of their willingness to ask for (and make use of) help, then sure. But your original comment makes it sound like you're tossing them into the same bucket as the students who never need to show up for help in the first place, which is absolutely unwarranted.
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
  >"If you mean to say that they succeed because of their willingness to ask for (and make use of) help, then sure." Yes, this is exactly what I mean. Success often requires asking for help. Countless times I tried to help students that really didn't seem to care too much, they just wanted to get through the class. (it was required for the degree) But I regretted splitting my time equally with people that just wanted to eek their way through, when they didn't even care, and didn't really need my help to pass, just to get a better grade. Where as I wish I had devoted more effort/time towards students that really wanted to excel, even if their skills weren't great, or their talent was near non-existant. The students that had a drive and need to learn, but still needed help, were the ones that succeeded. Half the students were there for unknown reasons and would play games in class. Try and tell me how much I should care that they have run out of time to get their projects done at the last minute? It's better for them to fail than to get shoe-horned into the next class because I helped them maintain their last minute freakout sessions. This did not help them succeed at school or life.
  - EADGBE 8y ago
    > Half the students were there for unknown reasons and would play games in class. I think this is an example of why college isn't for everyone; and if it is for everyone, not all at the same time. These people are literally there because they're scared (or, rather ingrained) to think about where else they should be.
stealthmodeclan 8y ago
> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them Rich can have unmotivated kid and poor can have motivated kids and vice-versa. Those who can't succeed, schools can still accept fees from them and create a larger pool of resources which those who 'can do' can leverage at expense of those who can't. Wether it's good or bad - it's for the society to decide.
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
  This is exactly what I ran into. And I was really happy for the highly motivated poor kids to get the opportunities in the school. Some of the few bright moments in my life is seeing students work hard and succeed.
achow 8y ago
Since the discussion is about higher education in general, perspective from eastern culture.. Higher education most often helps poor students or students of limited means and without any family connections to land coveted jobs, which is life changing not only for them but for their family. Education (and to some degree small time entrepreneurship) is the only way for them to come out of their circumstances that were not of their choosing. These people would not have succeeded anyways.
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
  I wonder if this is why so many Asian student do well in the US? Their base motivation is completely different than ours?
dagw 8y ago
There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. That was me for a long time (I even dropped out once), until I took a course from a teacher that actually inspired me in a subject I found fascinating. Next thing you know I had a Masters degree in math.
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
  Which is awesome, congratulations. Some of my students were inspired in my classes and have good jobs in the industry. They were looking for something, and I had something to offer. I suspect your experience wasn't too different. Unfortunately, most students don't find what you found...

ve55 8y ago

It was noticed that those who were in more higher education went on to achieve more success later in life (where success is often more income, but obviously many other things too). Over time some inferred causality from this: clearly the reason why some were successful was because they had a degree or even a masters or PhD. Thus in order to encourage success, it was decided that higher education should be strongly recommended as a means to achieve success. But what was not considered was that the causality here could be incorrect, instead showing us that people with traits optimized for success in life chose to enroll in higher education to use the additional knowledge and experience as a catalyst for their success (or they just otherwise loved academia or learning). Due to the extent of which this first hypothesis was treated as a fact, we are left with a system that attempts to reinforce it at many levels of society, ignoring the large cost that it takes.

iampims 8y ago
Same thing happened when someone noticed a correlation between successful kids and kids who have books at home. Someone ordered that every household should have books at home while failing to realize that correlation != causation…
- seansmccullough 8y ago
  Same thing with home ownership.
  - alex_young 8y ago
    All of the above are great screens for wealth. Interesting coincidence.
    - cm2012 8y ago
      Parental income and educational achievments of children are almost perfectly correlated up until some very high wealth #. https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/ https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and...
      - bzbarsky 8y ago
        Right, but so are parental income and parental achievement. And last I checked, there is a strong correlation between maternal educational achievement and child educational achievement even after controlling for various things including wealth. The correlation with paternal achievement when controlling for other factors is much lower.
        cm2012 8y ago
        Yes, this is why the idea of meritocracy sounds fair, but really isn't. Our merit is largely determined by factors outside of our control.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  It's a well-known fact that your car will go faster if it is painted red.
  - anticensor 8y ago
    Did you mean "won't go faster"? This reads like an unmarked sarcasm.
    - ohBlahDeeBlah 8y ago
      He means red cars go faster, because the people who buy red cars always drive fast. This is a well-known platonic ideal.
mehrdadn 8y ago
> But what was not considered was that the causality here could be incorrect How do you know this possibility has been left unconsidered?
- em500 8y ago
  It was certainly not unconsidered by labor economists who have worked on such problems for the past half century (http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_educ_earnings.pdf http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_educ_earnings.pd...)
em500 8y ago
The causality / endogeneity problems with estimating returns to schooling (due to unobserved individual "ability" variables) have been known to economists if not politicians) since since at least the 1960s, probably even earlier, see e.g. the intro of http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_educ_earnings.pdf http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_educ_earnings.pd... Measuring the true returns of education is impossible, both on the individual level (we can't replay history with alternative choices) and the population level (clean randomisation on education is socially unacceptable), so all we have are approximations and methodological hacks (technical summary in linked summary paper). But such approximations typically found that "ability bias" was not all that large.

codingdave 8y ago

Where did you teach? I ask because I'm curious if that perspective is accurate at all types of post-secondary institutions, or if there is a difference between for-profits, private schools, community colleges, state schools, Ivy League, etc.

closeparen 8y ago
Elite institutions mostly filter these students out in the admissions process.
RobertRoberts 8y ago
I taught at a community college. It's likely the percentage of people I have run into (I am still on the advisory board) is quite different than the universities. Or it's possible it's this area or a combination of both. But my experience is anecdotal, and maybe the industry attracts video game players (my assumption) and this makes it more difficult demographic for success. The welders in the school seem to do great and generally succeed from what I have learned from the other departments. Maybe I was a sucky teacher? Who knows...

closeparen 8y ago

A lot of debate about education forgets that roughly half of public university students wash out. Graduation is a real accomplishment that sets you apart from many others who had the same opportunity and access.

barrow-rider 8y ago
To clarify the above: only 54.8% graduate in 6 years. Not 4 years... 6 years, meaning more debt. And that assumes they graduate, as opposed to just giving up. source: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/10/bill-gates-us-college-dropout-rates-are-tragic.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/10/bill-gates-us-college-dropou...
- learc83 8y ago
  That doesn't necessarily mean more debt. It normally means they aren't taking a full load. Most schools charge by credit hour now until you go above 15, so the extra debt is mostly just 2 years extra interest.

epmaybe 8y ago

> also which a school can do little to help with. I think I disagree with you there. Debt - Schools could do better at financial assistance and in helping students better manage their finances. Relationship/mental issues - Schools could provide or increase their access to counselors/therapists. Peer mental health support is also becoming an attractive option. All of this being said, I'm not arguing that schools should help with these issues, rather just pointing out that there are solutions out there.

paulie_a 8y ago
I had a financial counselor at my college suggest I a put the last semester on a credit card. Fuck that woman, she is terrible person for even suggesting that. I dropped out in my final semester and quite frankly it hasn't mattered. College is insanely expensive, and at the end of the day for some careers is a waste of time.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Why is that a bad idea? You can get rid of credit card debt by filing bankruptcy, you can't get rid of student loan debt.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    Because I didn't want to add more any more debt. And quite frankly at the time I figured anyone I would would want to work for would not care...sure that piece of paper on the wall is cute but it's a meaningless trophy after a while. What have you actually done and how can operate in a team environment is more important The "prestige" of the degree. Meh
    - scarface74 8y ago
      She isn’t a “terrible” person for suggesting it. It was the most logical thing for her to suggest knowing statistically the lifetime salary outcome for someone with a degree vs. no degree. Her job is to give general advice that works for “90% of the people 90% of the time”.

hmwhy 8y ago

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their shortcomings than to make the effort to help them. I hope you are not thinking that you're doing society a favour by failing them instead of making the effort to figure out what their strengths are and/or if the way your teach, or what your employer preaches, may actually terrible. Maybe you shouldn't go back to teaching the next time you get "dragged back into" it.

lucidone 8y ago
Have you ever worked in academia? The humanities are a day care and delayed adulthood for those who would be better suited doing anything else with their time aside from one or two students in every classroom of ~40. For context, I left to work in the private sector with people who give a damn.
- EADGBE 8y ago
  Shit, I was really hoping to leave the corporate life for academia; people who give a damn...
  - alexgmcm 8y ago
    Academia in Physics was pretty hardcore from what I see of my friends working in it. I left for CS after undergrad.
topmonk 8y ago
Armchair critic
ppseafield 8y ago
I don't agree 100% with the OP, but there are some students that are indeed just net negatives on the class and in general. My state used to pay 100% of your state college tuition if you maintained a 3.0 GPA. A lot of students in my freshman dorm stayed until the 30 hour re-evaluation period and then disappeared forever. They partied, never went to class, never studied, and withdrew from most of their classes. They'd regularly fall asleep in or oversleep for 11:00 classes. As a teacher, how do you handle these students? Many of them have not been raised to be on their own, and college is the first time they're let "off the leash". They're unprepared to be independent adults. Additionally some students fail the same class over and over, then keep retaking the class with no improvement. They keep asking the same questions, slow down the class, and make it more difficult for everyone else to learn. As a teacher how do you handle these students? Maybe you've already failed them twice. Maybe you've had extensive study groups, office hours, extra credit materials for these people, but they continue to do poorly. Some of them you suspect have learning disabilities or other mental problems that may always interfere with their ability to take your class. (Later the state college system changed it to 80% tuition for 3.5 GPA, and at least my college mandated a maximum of 5 withdrawls, which cut down on the problem some.)

eslaught 8y ago

As someone who spent a number of years doing free tutoring for CS classes (i.e. the kind where you can't choose who is coming in to see you), I strongly disagree with this. Yes, there were students who started and ended the quarter hopelessly overwhelmed. But there were also students who through determination and hard work and lots and lots of help managed to dig themselves out of that hole. Many of those students would not have "succeeded anyways", they succeeded specifically because of the help they got. If you mean to say that they succeed because of their willingness to ask for (and make use of) help, then sure. But your original comment makes it sound like you're tossing them into the same bucket as the students who never need to show up for help in the first place, which is absolutely unwarranted.

RobertRoberts 8y ago
>"If you mean to say that they succeed because of their willingness to ask for (and make use of) help, then sure." Yes, this is exactly what I mean. Success often requires asking for help. Countless times I tried to help students that really didn't seem to care too much, they just wanted to get through the class. (it was required for the degree) But I regretted splitting my time equally with people that just wanted to eek their way through, when they didn't even care, and didn't really need my help to pass, just to get a better grade. Where as I wish I had devoted more effort/time towards students that really wanted to excel, even if their skills weren't great, or their talent was near non-existant. The students that had a drive and need to learn, but still needed help, were the ones that succeeded. Half the students were there for unknown reasons and would play games in class. Try and tell me how much I should care that they have run out of time to get their projects done at the last minute? It's better for them to fail than to get shoe-horned into the next class because I helped them maintain their last minute freakout sessions. This did not help them succeed at school or life.
- EADGBE 8y ago
  > Half the students were there for unknown reasons and would play games in class. I think this is an example of why college isn't for everyone; and if it is for everyone, not all at the same time. These people are literally there because they're scared (or, rather ingrained) to think about where else they should be.

stealthmodeclan 8y ago

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them Rich can have unmotivated kid and poor can have motivated kids and vice-versa. Those who can't succeed, schools can still accept fees from them and create a larger pool of resources which those who 'can do' can leverage at expense of those who can't. Wether it's good or bad - it's for the society to decide.

RobertRoberts 8y ago
This is exactly what I ran into. And I was really happy for the highly motivated poor kids to get the opportunities in the school. Some of the few bright moments in my life is seeing students work hard and succeed.

achow 8y ago

Since the discussion is about higher education in general, perspective from eastern culture.. Higher education most often helps poor students or students of limited means and without any family connections to land coveted jobs, which is life changing not only for them but for their family. Education (and to some degree small time entrepreneurship) is the only way for them to come out of their circumstances that were not of their choosing. These people would not have succeeded anyways.

RobertRoberts 8y ago
I wonder if this is why so many Asian student do well in the US? Their base motivation is completely different than ours?

dagw 8y ago

There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. That was me for a long time (I even dropped out once), until I took a course from a teacher that actually inspired me in a subject I found fascinating. Next thing you know I had a Masters degree in math.

RobertRoberts 8y ago
Which is awesome, congratulations. Some of my students were inspired in my classes and have good jobs in the industry. They were looking for something, and I had something to offer. I suspect your experience wasn't too different. Unfortunately, most students don't find what you found...