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I've been consulting off and on for the past five years and I've steered way clear of these marketplaces. It's a very obvious race to the bottom sort of situati

I've been consulting off and on for the past five years and I've steered way clear of these marketplaces. It's a very obvious race to the bottom sort of situation they're plotting for which I get. I'd be optimizing for that outcome too if I were one of them. Here's my advice to developers who want to freelance: network and network some more. Write blogs, create content marketing material for yourself. Go to meetups, tap your alum networks, go to hackathons, and work your networks. There's a lot of noise on LinkedIn but if used correctly, it can yield a lot for you. Every single client I've had is someone I've met in person. I get to know them, they get to know me, we establish trust. Any sort of opening meeting or two is free. Formally, we use it to talk requirements. Ostensibly, we use it to vet each other.

techdragon 8y ago
I’d like to extend your point about the first meeting being free. I have a long standing principle I borrowed from lawyers. The first consultation is free. I try to keep it to an hour, but I don’t hold clients to that time limit, if it takes half a day to wrap my head round a project, that’s what it takes and it’s still just one consultation and it’s free. I’m not about to charge you to find out that I’m the wrong guy for you, or that you’re the wrong place for me. It’s always worked well. So well in fact that I’m pretty sure I’ve beaten out less expensive people by virtue of being first through the door, signing paperwork and seeing source code... because I’m “free”. It might not work for everyone. But it’s working for me.
- ahmadss 8y ago
  Just chiming in that this is how the bigger software dev agencies do it as well. I worked at Viget (www.viget.com) and now at Pivotal (pivotal.io) on the biz dev / sales side and spending time on pre-sales analysis is key to making a software project successful and thus winning the deal / securing the contract.
  - dopeboy 8y ago
    This is pretty fascinating to me, thanks for sharing. The analysis you're referring to - how long does it take for the big clients you deal with? Is it mostly meetings?
    - ahmadss 8y ago
      Happy to talk in more detail directly (email address is my HN username at gmail) but in terms of the analysis done for software projects, the timing is generally a combination of 2-3 meetings over a period of a week or two. Each meeting can be an hour or three, but the goal is to get a sense of a) how mission critical the app is b) what are the primary challenges the client is trying to solve w the app in question c) who are the users of the app d) what does the client know about the users and their needs / pain points e) what are we going to prioritize when building f) who are stakeholders involved to get buy in g) what does the codebase look like and can we build atop it or is this gonna be a net new effort. When I'm trying to closing six, seven, or eight figure software dev deals, this process definitely involves a "sales" type of person as well as two - three devs and architects. The outcome is a proposal that sometimes is just a powerpoint deck with a summary of our understanding of the problem and the process / cost / timeline we'll take to solve it. Once I deliver the proposal, then it's all about getting to agreement on cost, timeline, and then getting signed contracts. Rule number 1 is that a deal is never ever a deal until the contract is signed and executed.
jhabdas 8y ago
TL;DR it's all about who you know and what you've done. Remove the ‘who’ part and all your left with is an algorithmic self-perception. In Becoming a Better Freelancer I give you three valuable lessons learned in just one year of freelance work. Learn from my mistakes. https://hackcabin.com/post/become-better-freelancer/ https://hackcabin.com/post/become-better-freelancer/
ivm 8y ago
> Here's my advice to developers who want to freelance: network and network some more. Write blogs, create content marketing material for yourself. There are many developers who can't do it because they live in Eastern Europe or Asia or Latin America and speak only conversational English. Upwork has a lot problems but it's providing $25+/h rates for thousands of professionals who otherwise would get only $10-15/h or less locally. (I'm one of them.)
- gaius 8y ago
  Eastern Europe or Asia or Latin America and speak only conversational English. It’s the opposite - they have access to markets that English-only speakers don’t. A Brazilian developer networking with Brazilian companies is going to be much happier than one scrabbling for work in a race-to-the-bottom marketplace like Upwork
  - ivm 8y ago
    These markets rarely pay as much as US or even UK. I've seen dozens of developers with 2-5 years of experience earning more on Upwork than senior developers in their countries. Also, it isn't a "race-to-the-bottom" if you have a good portfolio and know how to present your skills.
    - realusername 8y ago
      If they want to be paid well, they are probably not going on Upworks anyway... These websites are the bottom of what you can get as a consultant.
      - ivm 8y ago
        But where should they go with no presence in English-speaking Internet and only conversational language level?
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    You want access to the market with the most money because you want some of their money. I bet there's very little competition in the Somali language software community but the upper limit for what you're going to get paid is going to be substantially lower than that for people who can speak English, or even Spanish or Russian. If you're a UK developer looking for remote work you would on average do better compensation wise getting a remote job with an American company than a UK one. They're used to paying more so they do. They can because they're more profitable.

techdragon 8y ago

I’d like to extend your point about the first meeting being free. I have a long standing principle I borrowed from lawyers. The first consultation is free. I try to keep it to an hour, but I don’t hold clients to that time limit, if it takes half a day to wrap my head round a project, that’s what it takes and it’s still just one consultation and it’s free. I’m not about to charge you to find out that I’m the wrong guy for you, or that you’re the wrong place for me. It’s always worked well. So well in fact that I’m pretty sure I’ve beaten out less expensive people by virtue of being first through the door, signing paperwork and seeing source code... because I’m “free”. It might not work for everyone. But it’s working for me.

ahmadss 8y ago
Just chiming in that this is how the bigger software dev agencies do it as well. I worked at Viget (www.viget.com) and now at Pivotal (pivotal.io) on the biz dev / sales side and spending time on pre-sales analysis is key to making a software project successful and thus winning the deal / securing the contract.
- dopeboy 8y ago
  This is pretty fascinating to me, thanks for sharing. The analysis you're referring to - how long does it take for the big clients you deal with? Is it mostly meetings?
  - ahmadss 8y ago
    Happy to talk in more detail directly (email address is my HN username at gmail) but in terms of the analysis done for software projects, the timing is generally a combination of 2-3 meetings over a period of a week or two. Each meeting can be an hour or three, but the goal is to get a sense of a) how mission critical the app is b) what are the primary challenges the client is trying to solve w the app in question c) who are the users of the app d) what does the client know about the users and their needs / pain points e) what are we going to prioritize when building f) who are stakeholders involved to get buy in g) what does the codebase look like and can we build atop it or is this gonna be a net new effort. When I'm trying to closing six, seven, or eight figure software dev deals, this process definitely involves a "sales" type of person as well as two - three devs and architects. The outcome is a proposal that sometimes is just a powerpoint deck with a summary of our understanding of the problem and the process / cost / timeline we'll take to solve it. Once I deliver the proposal, then it's all about getting to agreement on cost, timeline, and then getting signed contracts. Rule number 1 is that a deal is never ever a deal until the contract is signed and executed.

jhabdas 8y ago

TL;DR it's all about who you know and what you've done. Remove the ‘who’ part and all your left with is an algorithmic self-perception. In Becoming a Better Freelancer I give you three valuable lessons learned in just one year of freelance work. Learn from my mistakes. https://hackcabin.com/post/become-better-freelancer/ https://hackcabin.com/post/become-better-freelancer/

ivm 8y ago

> Here's my advice to developers who want to freelance: network and network some more. Write blogs, create content marketing material for yourself. There are many developers who can't do it because they live in Eastern Europe or Asia or Latin America and speak only conversational English. Upwork has a lot problems but it's providing $25+/h rates for thousands of professionals who otherwise would get only $10-15/h or less locally. (I'm one of them.)

gaius 8y ago
Eastern Europe or Asia or Latin America and speak only conversational English. It’s the opposite - they have access to markets that English-only speakers don’t. A Brazilian developer networking with Brazilian companies is going to be much happier than one scrabbling for work in a race-to-the-bottom marketplace like Upwork
- ivm 8y ago
  These markets rarely pay as much as US or even UK. I've seen dozens of developers with 2-5 years of experience earning more on Upwork than senior developers in their countries. Also, it isn't a "race-to-the-bottom" if you have a good portfolio and know how to present your skills.
  - realusername 8y ago
    If they want to be paid well, they are probably not going on Upworks anyway... These websites are the bottom of what you can get as a consultant.
    - ivm 8y ago
      But where should they go with no presence in English-speaking Internet and only conversational language level?
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  You want access to the market with the most money because you want some of their money. I bet there's very little competition in the Somali language software community but the upper limit for what you're going to get paid is going to be substantially lower than that for people who can speak English, or even Spanish or Russian. If you're a UK developer looking for remote work you would on average do better compensation wise getting a remote job with an American company than a UK one. They're used to paying more so they do. They can because they're more profitable.