8 ms·

It really depends on what you consider the "hard" part about making electric cars to be. Do you think that the design and engineering of an electric car is the

by xkjkls 8y ago

It really depends on what you consider the "hard" part about making electric cars to be. Do you think that the design and engineering of an electric car is the difficulty? Or is it manufacturing millions of them at scale? If the former is the real difficulty, then you might be able to make sense of the Tesla stock price; if it's the latter, then the traditional auto-manufacturers should be able to easily come into the EV market transfer their brands crush Tesla on greater manufacturing quality and efficiency.

cultus 8y ago
They already have come in. The Chevy Bolt has a 230 mile range, compared to 220 for the Model 3. You can go out and buy one today for $36,000. The 3 and other models are also plagued by quality control problems. The Bolt is both more reliable and has a better interior. And a speedometer!
- nickik 8y ago
  Dude, the Bolt is a compliance vehicle that loses a massive amount of cash every-time it is sold. Secondly, the sales of the Bolt have already collapsed and all the Tesla car outsell it. The model 3 outsells it 7 to one and this month probably 10 to 1. Just comparing range and not looking at the economy or the sales number is basically spreading FUD. > The 3 and other models are also plagued by quality control problems. The Bolt is both more reliable and has a better interior. And a speedometer! I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. The Model 3 has some quality control issues on the frame and GM does that a bit better. However if you go into the electronic, the software, the drive-train, the charging network, the suspension and so on its not even comparable in terms of quality. See for some info on an independent evaluation of the Bolt: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl3cUMIX9Uo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl3cUMIX9Uo
  - cultus 8y ago
    >I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. The Model 3 has some quality control issues on the frame and GM does that a bit better. However if you go into the electronic, the software, the drive-train, the charging network, the suspension and so on its not even comparable in terms of quality. The software in the Model 3 is famously buggy. Did you see the Edmonds review? https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2017/long-term-road-test/2017-tesla-model-3-monthly-update-for-april-2018.html https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2017/long-term-road-te... Some highlights: > Nav screen going haywire: zooming, scrolling, pinching, pixelating all at once. > Audio system turning on by itself at full volume. > Audio system came on and went to full volume all by itself while the car was off, locked and unoccupied. I heard it from 100 yards away. "Who is that joker playing his stereo so loud I can hear it from here?" Oh, it's Elon. I turned it down, but it kept wavering up and down as I started driving, working against my repeated attempts to dial it down. Then it blasted all the way to maximum. My ears are still ringing two hours later. Fixed after reboot. Not sure about hearing damage. > Audio page leaping up and down rapidly like the up-caret button to expand the source menu was being played with by a kid who ate too much candy. Concurrent with the volume problem above. Same reboot. > The passenger vanity mirror fell off completely. Installed and held on only by double-sided tape. Reinstalled by pressing really hard on the mirror. > The screen went completely dark on startup, no music or operation. Restarted the car. The screen worked; the backup camera did not. > The car will not shift into Drive or Reverse upon startup. "Vehicle Systems Are Powering Up. Shift Into D or R After Message Clears." Have to wait for it to power up. A loud click comes from the rear of the car as if a drive shaft is engaging and the message on the screen goes away. > The car displays a new message: "Cannot Maintain Vehicle Power. Car May Stop Driving or Shut Down." No shutdowns yet, but keeping an eye out.
    - nickik 8y ago
      > The software in the Model 3 is famously buggy. Did you see the Edmonds review? The Tesla software also way more better feature then most other cars. Compare Tesla software experience and the interaction of the car and the app is not even comparable to anybody else and most reviews reflect that. Also, Tesla can update over the air and they are consistently fixing these bugs. Clearly it has not hurt Tesla sales or the consumer rating they are getting. Comparing that problem to the Bolt complete lack of integration of the different system and losing money on every car, are not even comparable in terms of how problematic it is.
- tbabb 8y ago
  Bolt is to Tesla as BlackBerry is to iPhone. They are both products of the same class, but one of them just obliterates the other both in terms of technological sophistication and cool factor. Turns out that has an impact on market success.
nickik 8y ago
The "hard" party is actually nothing you have mentioned. The hard party is to make it PROFITABLE. The simple fact of the matter is that no other car manufacture has a clear plan of how they will do that. All of them are building up the technology base, at least in terms of the drivetrain, but they have failed to vertically integrate the electronic to the same extent and the do not have a reliable low cost battery access. Lets do an example. The battery is a huge part of the cost of a car. If you have to buy this you have to pay a profit on that, not to mention that because all non-Tesla car buyers compete for the same batteries the margins will be huge. Independent evaluation of the Bolt for example are showing that GM is losing money on every single Bolt that is produced. They have competently bought the battery and and the electronics part. Its a integrated mess in a GM box. That gone cost you a lot and GM will never built 300'000 Bolts. The Bolt is built for compliance and to be able to build more SUVs (because the strange fuel economy regulation system). So the game that the other manufactures are basically waiting until they can build profitable electric cars while Tesla is hellbent on producing as much battery capability as they and that allows them already to have a cheapish car on the market and to make billions of $ selling it.
- xkjkls 8y ago
  > Lets do an example. The battery is a huge part of the cost of a car. If you have to buy this you have to pay a profit on that, not to mention that because all non-Tesla car buyers compete for the same batteries the margins will be huge. Panasonic is the one who manufacturers Tesla's batteries, that's not a operational advantage for them. Many other car companies have similar deals with other battery manufacturers, like Toyota/Mastushita. Also, I don't get why you think battery margins will be huge? What is the major reason that prevents significant supplier competition? > Independent evaluation of the Bolt for example are showing that GM is losing money on every single Bolt that is produced. Yes, it was mainly built for compliance reasons as a compromise vehicle, but it isn't that Tesla has been able to construct a vehicle for less price than Chevy constructs the Bolt. > So the game that the other manufactures are basically waiting until they can build profitable electric cars while Tesla is hellbent on producing as much battery capability as they and that allows them already to have a cheapish car on the market and to make billions of $ selling it. What cheapish car? The Model 3 is $49,000 as you can configure it currently?

by xkjkls 8y ago

cultus 8y ago

They already have come in. The Chevy Bolt has a 230 mile range, compared to 220 for the Model 3. You can go out and buy one today for $36,000. The 3 and other models are also plagued by quality control problems. The Bolt is both more reliable and has a better interior. And a speedometer!

nickik 8y ago
Dude, the Bolt is a compliance vehicle that loses a massive amount of cash every-time it is sold. Secondly, the sales of the Bolt have already collapsed and all the Tesla car outsell it. The model 3 outsells it 7 to one and this month probably 10 to 1. Just comparing range and not looking at the economy or the sales number is basically spreading FUD. > The 3 and other models are also plagued by quality control problems. The Bolt is both more reliable and has a better interior. And a speedometer! I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. The Model 3 has some quality control issues on the frame and GM does that a bit better. However if you go into the electronic, the software, the drive-train, the charging network, the suspension and so on its not even comparable in terms of quality. See for some info on an independent evaluation of the Bolt: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl3cUMIX9Uo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl3cUMIX9Uo
- cultus 8y ago
  >I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. The Model 3 has some quality control issues on the frame and GM does that a bit better. However if you go into the electronic, the software, the drive-train, the charging network, the suspension and so on its not even comparable in terms of quality. The software in the Model 3 is famously buggy. Did you see the Edmonds review? https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2017/long-term-road-test/2017-tesla-model-3-monthly-update-for-april-2018.html https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2017/long-term-road-te... Some highlights: > Nav screen going haywire: zooming, scrolling, pinching, pixelating all at once. > Audio system turning on by itself at full volume. > Audio system came on and went to full volume all by itself while the car was off, locked and unoccupied. I heard it from 100 yards away. "Who is that joker playing his stereo so loud I can hear it from here?" Oh, it's Elon. I turned it down, but it kept wavering up and down as I started driving, working against my repeated attempts to dial it down. Then it blasted all the way to maximum. My ears are still ringing two hours later. Fixed after reboot. Not sure about hearing damage. > Audio page leaping up and down rapidly like the up-caret button to expand the source menu was being played with by a kid who ate too much candy. Concurrent with the volume problem above. Same reboot. > The passenger vanity mirror fell off completely. Installed and held on only by double-sided tape. Reinstalled by pressing really hard on the mirror. > The screen went completely dark on startup, no music or operation. Restarted the car. The screen worked; the backup camera did not. > The car will not shift into Drive or Reverse upon startup. "Vehicle Systems Are Powering Up. Shift Into D or R After Message Clears." Have to wait for it to power up. A loud click comes from the rear of the car as if a drive shaft is engaging and the message on the screen goes away. > The car displays a new message: "Cannot Maintain Vehicle Power. Car May Stop Driving or Shut Down." No shutdowns yet, but keeping an eye out.
  - nickik 8y ago
    > The software in the Model 3 is famously buggy. Did you see the Edmonds review? The Tesla software also way more better feature then most other cars. Compare Tesla software experience and the interaction of the car and the app is not even comparable to anybody else and most reviews reflect that. Also, Tesla can update over the air and they are consistently fixing these bugs. Clearly it has not hurt Tesla sales or the consumer rating they are getting. Comparing that problem to the Bolt complete lack of integration of the different system and losing money on every car, are not even comparable in terms of how problematic it is.
tbabb 8y ago
Bolt is to Tesla as BlackBerry is to iPhone. They are both products of the same class, but one of them just obliterates the other both in terms of technological sophistication and cool factor. Turns out that has an impact on market success.

nickik 8y ago

The "hard" party is actually nothing you have mentioned. The hard party is to make it PROFITABLE. The simple fact of the matter is that no other car manufacture has a clear plan of how they will do that. All of them are building up the technology base, at least in terms of the drivetrain, but they have failed to vertically integrate the electronic to the same extent and the do not have a reliable low cost battery access. Lets do an example. The battery is a huge part of the cost of a car. If you have to buy this you have to pay a profit on that, not to mention that because all non-Tesla car buyers compete for the same batteries the margins will be huge. Independent evaluation of the Bolt for example are showing that GM is losing money on every single Bolt that is produced. They have competently bought the battery and and the electronics part. Its a integrated mess in a GM box. That gone cost you a lot and GM will never built 300'000 Bolts. The Bolt is built for compliance and to be able to build more SUVs (because the strange fuel economy regulation system). So the game that the other manufactures are basically waiting until they can build profitable electric cars while Tesla is hellbent on producing as much battery capability as they and that allows them already to have a cheapish car on the market and to make billions of $ selling it.

xkjkls 8y ago
> Lets do an example. The battery is a huge part of the cost of a car. If you have to buy this you have to pay a profit on that, not to mention that because all non-Tesla car buyers compete for the same batteries the margins will be huge. Panasonic is the one who manufacturers Tesla's batteries, that's not a operational advantage for them. Many other car companies have similar deals with other battery manufacturers, like Toyota/Mastushita. Also, I don't get why you think battery margins will be huge? What is the major reason that prevents significant supplier competition? > Independent evaluation of the Bolt for example are showing that GM is losing money on every single Bolt that is produced. Yes, it was mainly built for compliance reasons as a compromise vehicle, but it isn't that Tesla has been able to construct a vehicle for less price than Chevy constructs the Bolt. > So the game that the other manufactures are basically waiting until they can build profitable electric cars while Tesla is hellbent on producing as much battery capability as they and that allows them already to have a cheapish car on the market and to make billions of $ selling it. What cheapish car? The Model 3 is $49,000 as you can configure it currently?