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The free market of automobile manufacturing in which the USA has propped up both GM and Ford, and in the past Chrysler? The one in which the Japanese government

The free market of automobile manufacturing in which the USA has propped up both GM and Ford, and in the past Chrysler? The one in which the Japanese government is carefully intertwined with their automotive industry? The government is a customer of space x but they still compete against other companies for that business.

paganel 8y ago
The French government is also a big shareholder of Renault and Volkswagen is partially owned by the regional government where they’re domiciled, if I’m not mistaken, plus the German government itself always putting the interests of the German big 3 (MB, BMW, VW) ahead of almost everything else, even their citizens’ health (see the tax incentives given to diesel vehicles for the last couple of decades).
- majewsky 8y ago
  Correct. Also a large part of the reason why we still don't have universal speed limits on Autobahnen.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    That‘s simply wrong. We don‘t have a speed limit because the majority of the people would hate that. On the other hand, German carmakers have a longstanding gentleman‘s agreement to electronically limit their cars to 250 km/h. Seems they can live with limits.
    - qume 8y ago
      Wow 250kmh. May as well be limited to C like the rest of the world's auto makers at that speed
      - Tomte 8y ago
        Few cars reach that, of course.
        stephengillie 8y ago
        It just takes a little longer.
    - majewsky 8y ago
      > We don‘t have a speed limit because the majority of the people would hate that. That prompted me to look for polls. > (2015-10-15) 56% of those polled would support a speed limit of 150 km/h on all German Autobahnen Representative survey by YouGov, source: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/umfrage-mehrheit-der-deutschen-fuer-tempolimit-13857609.html http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/umfrage-mehrheit-d... > (2018-01-26) A slim majority of Germans (52%) supports a general speed limit of 130 km/h. Representative survey by Forsa, source: https://www.tz.de/auto/tempolimit-autobahn-knappe-mehrheit-dafuer-zr-9557423.html https://www.tz.de/auto/tempolimit-autobahn-knappe-mehrheit-d... > (date unclear) "Are you for or against a general speed limit of 120 km/h?" - 35% for, 62% against Source: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/258757/umfrage/umfrage-zum-tempolimit-auf-autobahnen/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/258757/umfrag... (they won't disclose source, survey method or date unless you cough up your personal data) So it appears that a speed limit would be supported by the majority if it starts out reasonably high. (That's the same way the Swiss did it: They started with a relatively high speed limit, and then lowered it as the majority mindset shifted towards higher energy efficiency.)
  - miracle2k 8y ago
    Is the claim here that with a speed limit, the business of the car companies would suffer? How so? The reality, I think, is that there is sufficient support for the speedlimit-free Autobahn from Germans.
gamblor956 8y ago
Tesla has also received a substantial amount of government support, including state and federal EV rebates for buyers of its cars (roughly $300 million), an extremely large handout from the state of Nevada ($1.3 billion), a large handout from New York ($1 billion), handouts from US Government ($500 million), carbon credits ($520 billion as of 2015). Collectively, Tesla's government support actually exceeds the government's bailout of Ford by several orders of magnitude... GM and Ford were propped up by the government during the Great Recession to protect tens of thousands of jobs. Both companies have since repaid those loans...though GM discharged much of its loan through bankruptcy.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  > Tesla has also received a substantial amount of government supporting, including EV rebates for buyers of its cars. All automakers are eligible for this support...if they build electric cars. Ford and Tesla are the only automakers to have never declared bankruptcy. These are tiresome arguments that hold no water.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    Which is why I edited my comment to provide more detail. It's not just the EV rebates, Tesla has also received substantial government handouts; on the order of billions.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - sjwright 8y ago
      Can you provide specifics?
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  >Tesla has also received a substantial amount of government support Yes, the message here is almost all large industries in all countries receive substantial government support. The amount of goverment subsidy for fossil fuels that normal cars run on, for instance, is much higher than for renewables.
karpodiem 8y ago
It's a national security interest that the United States has a automotive industry that pushes meaningful (3+ million vehicles a year domestically) volume. There is absolutely nothing special about a Tesla BEV other than that unlike most automakers, it's extremely unprofitable. Go read Tesla's financial statements.

paganel 8y ago

The French government is also a big shareholder of Renault and Volkswagen is partially owned by the regional government where they’re domiciled, if I’m not mistaken, plus the German government itself always putting the interests of the German big 3 (MB, BMW, VW) ahead of almost everything else, even their citizens’ health (see the tax incentives given to diesel vehicles for the last couple of decades).

majewsky 8y ago
Correct. Also a large part of the reason why we still don't have universal speed limits on Autobahnen.
- Tomte 8y ago
  That‘s simply wrong. We don‘t have a speed limit because the majority of the people would hate that. On the other hand, German carmakers have a longstanding gentleman‘s agreement to electronically limit their cars to 250 km/h. Seems they can live with limits.
  - qume 8y ago
    Wow 250kmh. May as well be limited to C like the rest of the world's auto makers at that speed
    - Tomte 8y ago
      Few cars reach that, of course.
      - stephengillie 8y ago
        It just takes a little longer.
  - majewsky 8y ago
    > We don‘t have a speed limit because the majority of the people would hate that. That prompted me to look for polls. > (2015-10-15) 56% of those polled would support a speed limit of 150 km/h on all German Autobahnen Representative survey by YouGov, source: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/umfrage-mehrheit-der-deutschen-fuer-tempolimit-13857609.html http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/umfrage-mehrheit-d... > (2018-01-26) A slim majority of Germans (52%) supports a general speed limit of 130 km/h. Representative survey by Forsa, source: https://www.tz.de/auto/tempolimit-autobahn-knappe-mehrheit-dafuer-zr-9557423.html https://www.tz.de/auto/tempolimit-autobahn-knappe-mehrheit-d... > (date unclear) "Are you for or against a general speed limit of 120 km/h?" - 35% for, 62% against Source: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/258757/umfrage/umfrage-zum-tempolimit-auf-autobahnen/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/258757/umfrag... (they won't disclose source, survey method or date unless you cough up your personal data) So it appears that a speed limit would be supported by the majority if it starts out reasonably high. (That's the same way the Swiss did it: They started with a relatively high speed limit, and then lowered it as the majority mindset shifted towards higher energy efficiency.)
- miracle2k 8y ago
  Is the claim here that with a speed limit, the business of the car companies would suffer? How so? The reality, I think, is that there is sufficient support for the speedlimit-free Autobahn from Germans.

gamblor956 8y ago

Tesla has also received a substantial amount of government support, including state and federal EV rebates for buyers of its cars (roughly $300 million), an extremely large handout from the state of Nevada ($1.3 billion), a large handout from New York ($1 billion), handouts from US Government ($500 million), carbon credits ($520 billion as of 2015). Collectively, Tesla's government support actually exceeds the government's bailout of Ford by several orders of magnitude... GM and Ford were propped up by the government during the Great Recession to protect tens of thousands of jobs. Both companies have since repaid those loans...though GM discharged much of its loan through bankruptcy.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
> Tesla has also received a substantial amount of government supporting, including EV rebates for buyers of its cars. All automakers are eligible for this support...if they build electric cars. Ford and Tesla are the only automakers to have never declared bankruptcy. These are tiresome arguments that hold no water.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Which is why I edited my comment to provide more detail. It's not just the EV rebates, Tesla has also received substantial government handouts; on the order of billions.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - sjwright 8y ago
    Can you provide specifics?
gameswithgo 8y ago
>Tesla has also received a substantial amount of government support Yes, the message here is almost all large industries in all countries receive substantial government support. The amount of goverment subsidy for fossil fuels that normal cars run on, for instance, is much higher than for renewables.

karpodiem 8y ago

It's a national security interest that the United States has a automotive industry that pushes meaningful (3+ million vehicles a year domestically) volume. There is absolutely nothing special about a Tesla BEV other than that unlike most automakers, it's extremely unprofitable. Go read Tesla's financial statements.