7 ms·

I'm pretty shocked at the low adoption of hybrid cars. Why don't people want them?

by drb91 8y ago

sampleinajar 8y ago
Good question. What is your expectation? I found a link that seems to suggest that people do want them (at about 2% of cars sold), maybe just not at the level you expect? They are typically more expensive to buy. People aren't good with long term cost benefit analysis. https://www.hybridcars.com/june-2018-hybrid-cars-sales-dashboard/ https://www.hybridcars.com/june-2018-hybrid-cars-sales-dashb...
- drb91 8y ago
  It seems absurd in retrospect, but I was envisioning something like 20-30% of cars. Possibly this is due to commuting with rich people in SF where priuses are every other car. 2% makes it seem like we have no hope for addressing global warming--nobody seems to care.
  - briandear 8y ago
    When the market is ready for hybrids and electrics, hybrids and electrics will become more plentiful. People seem to forget that individuals have to look out for themselves first. Not everyone is willing to make the financial sacrifice to solve a nebulous problem. As long as China and India have little incentive to fix their pollution issues, the impact of even the entire state of California is literally a drop in the bucket. The thinking is “why should I suffer” when the developing world pretty much does whatever they want. A bunch of Bay Area techies driving electric has about as much impact on climate as a whale farting in the ocean. The sky might be falling, but it isn’t going to be stopped by Americans driving electric.
    - drb91 8y ago
      > People seem to forget that individuals have to look out for themselves first. Why do you say that? I can understand people need to look after themselves, but I can have my own hopes at the same time. Why would you want me to not hope to address this problem? The market certainly isn't going to provide any hope; that's why emissions are considered an externality, because people don't approach the problem rationally (as a society). Tragedy of the commons should be a descriptive trait, not a justification.
    - Animats 8y ago
      Shenzhen just went to 100% electric buses. 16,000 of them. China is going electric faster than the US is.
gamechangr 8y ago
good point....yeah you're right.
- gburdell3 8y ago
  Sounds like you're talking about electric cars, not hybrids.
  - milesvp 8y ago
    Possibly parent post is confused, but apperently to jump start a modern prius, you need to open the fuse box, which is unusual. So maybe he didn't do enough research? As to the mountains statement, here's a piece of anecdata. My boss, who was a big fellow, said he had a really hard time driving through mountain passes with his first gen prius. It just didn't have enough power to drive up steep grades at freeway speeds carrying 300 lbs. He said he was constantly being passed by semi trucks hauling loads...
    - outworlder 8y ago
      That's a problem of the first generation Prius then. Even a Nissan Leaf has absolutely no problem climbing mountains (they will murder the battery charge though – ask me how do I know – although you'll get some of it back as you go back down). A Chevy Volt would do it even better, and that's an actual hybrid. Electric engines have outstanding power relative to their size. The Leaf actual engine is the size of a football.
    - perl4ever 8y ago
      The Prius has been redesigned three times since then, so I'm not sure what that tells you. Gasoline engines lose power at altitude, as it happens.
gburdell3 8y ago
My mom just bought a Prius Prime, a plug-in hybrid, a few months ago, and it seems to solve all the problems of dealing with poor charging infrastructure in Texas. It can go around 25 miles on pure electric power, so that takes care of 90% of her driving (charging at home at night). For longer drives, it's a hybrid, so it still has a gas tank and can go just as far as a regular hybrid or gas car.
jlv2 8y ago
BEVs are mechanically simpler, requiring less maintenance and expense (and they eliminate all use of fossil fuels). Hybrids and PHEVs are mechanically more complex than ICEVs, often requiring more things that need maintenance and repair. PHEVs are the worst of all, in my opinion, because on top of everything else, they tend to clog up public charging stations. BEVs with decent range (the Chevy Bolt, Tesla, and some upcoming models) are the real solution. Charge at work and home - and only use DCFC (high current) public charging for trips. Background: I've had a LEAF for 4.5 years as my daily commuter car; it's got (32K miles). For trips last year we got a Tesla Model S (24K miles).
- drb91 8y ago
  > Charge at work and home - and only use DCFC (high current) public charging for trips. As I essentially only use my car for weekend road trips, how is the long-distance experience hopping from charger to charger? How about country driving--is the density high enough you can check out some nature?
  - outworlder 8y ago
    Previous generation Leaf? Debatable. I have one. I plotted a trip from the East Bay to Yosemite and the range seemed enough on paper, even accounting for elevation. But in at least one stretch there was a single quick charge station (ChaDeMo) that I could rely on. If that was out of service I would have issues, as even L2 were not plentiful. On Yosemite itself I could find only one L2. So I did not attempt the trip. Current generation Leaf, Bolt, Tesla? The range would be pretty adequate and comfortable. Not sure about long desert stretches, you could have an idea here: https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/ https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/ Also of note is that a major drawback in the US is the high highway speeds. Drag increases to the speed squared, so going 60mph vs 80mph makes a huge difference. We don't notice as much in internal combustion engines, because a gas tank has so much energy – we may notice in our pockets though.
- ams6110 8y ago
  You might want to spell out your acronyms on first use. I'm having to guess at what you're talking about.
gameswithgo 8y ago
what makes you think adoption is low? Probably you do not realize how many models you see are hybrid, most don't look different.
- rbanffy 8y ago
  A couple months back in Ireland Toyota was doing a free upgrade to PHEV on all models sold.
briandear 8y ago
They’re more expensive and the cost differential isn’t offset by the gas savings. Hybrids don’t solve any real problem in the market: gas is plentiful thus relatively cheap. You don’t generally save the cost difference in gas savings unless you keep the car longer than is typical. Even in Europe where gas is far more expensive and taxed, hybrids don’t make financial sense in most cases: hybrids are more expensive and a higher price car means higher sales taxes, offsetting gains from saving gas. A diesel Peugeot 5007 gets over 40 miles to the gallon, which is approaching hybrid levels for that size vehicle but a hybrid can cost €8000 or so more. No way during the normal lifespan would you save that much in gas. Also, if you are financing, you are paying interest on that higher price, thus making the lack of cost savings even more pronounced. Hybrid big rigs on the other hand, could be game changing. A Prius is a statement car more than an actual exercise in frugality. A Honda Civic is a nicer car, doesn’t look like a squashed bean and costs less with more features and plenty of fuel-efficiency. But then a Civic doesn’t give people the same sense of superiority as does a Prius. In the Bay Area replace Prius with Tesla and Civic with Audi and you can make similar arguments.
- llampx 8y ago
  > Hybrid big rigs on the other hand, could be game changing. How? I believe most of the efficiency of the Prius and other hybrids is realized with city (stop and go) driving. In highway driving it is not any more efficient than any other car with a similar 1.3L engine and aerodynamics.
  - CarVac 8y ago
    The Prius is still more efficient on the highway than other cars because nobody (at least in the US) would buy a similar-sized car with a 1.3L engine and no hybrid system to boost power.
- serpix 8y ago
  In Europe they are the best, especially PHEVs as they lower the cost of driving substantially in addition to getting less taxed. There is no competition cost wise.
AcerbicZero 8y ago
I think its safe to say we're experiencing a true Renaissance of petrol powered cars right now, which makes the EV options fairly unappealing to "car" people such as myself (generally speaking). As for the commodity type of car buyer, the price seems to be the issue I hear most often. Why spend 40k on an EV with limited range and utility, when you could drop 30k on a mid-sized sedan that gets excellent gas mileage, has comical amounts of power, and has a level of luxury that would have required a 6 figure investment 10 years ago? Not to mention you can take it on a long drive without having to pre-plan the entire thing. In a few years, when gas prices are high again I'm sure we'll see the EVs start picking up, and at that point I suspect the charging station issue will solve itself.
- outworlder 8y ago
  > Why spend 40k on an EV with limited range and utility, Parent said hybrid.
rbanffy 8y ago
Pure electric is sexy. Also, hybrids are mechanically more complicated (that's my excuse).
- outworlder 8y ago
  Priuses are with the dual drive train. Chevy Volts are not, the generator is much simpler than a normal car engine. You are trading a normal ICE for an electric + generator combination, which is mechanically simpler (transmission is basically non-existent, for example). Not as simple as an EV, but can be simpler than a normal ICE.
  - davidgould 8y ago
    Chevy Volts are not serial hybrids as you describe. They have a complex transmission that merges the gasoline engine and electric motor power in several modes for optimal efficiency. Nice car but not simple. Perhaps you meant the Chevy Bolt which is fully electric with no transmission or gasoline engine?
    - perl4ever 8y ago
      Honda has multiple hybrids now that have essentially no transmission - either the engine charges the battery, or it is connected to the wheels as if in top gear. I haven't spent a lot of time driving one, but it seems elegant on paper. Perhaps not quite as smooth as the Toyota hybrid transmissions because it has the clutch engaging or disengaging the direct drive.
  - photojosh 8y ago
    It would seem to me that doing it this way is ideal, because you can run the ICE at one specific optimised RPM. Would the losses from from charging the battery would be less than those from running an ICE in inefficient ranges? Is the only downside that you can't get a combined peak power from ICE+electric that's higher than the electric on its own? Am electrical engineer, not mechanical, so I'd be interested in someone who knows about these things chiming in.
  - 8y ago
megaman22 8y ago
I think that gas going back down to two-something a gallon again after that period a few years ago where we started getting used to it pushing four bucks, combined with increased fuel efficiency of newer ICE vehicles, and the price premium of hybrids explains a lot of it away.
- wcoenen 8y ago
  Howcome gasoline is so cheap in the US? Here in Belgium prices are between 1.5 and 1.6 euro/liter, which corresponds to 6.5 to 7 dollar/gallon.
  - ph0rque 8y ago
    Taxes (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Gas_and_Diesel_taxes.pdf https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Gas_and_...)
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    Taxes are low and there would be a mass revolt if they were jacked up to European levels.
  - aurelianito 8y ago
    Operation Irak Liberation. That's the kind of things the US do to have its gas cheap. Belgium does not do this.
  - megaman22 8y ago
    Fracking, and development of all that domestic shale oil that became economical to exploit when oil prices were through the roof previously, as I understand it.
    - shiftpgdn 8y ago
      Oil is sold on a global market. In fact the state of Texas is due to become a large producer/exporter than the nation of Iraq in the next year or two. Differences in price are due to regional taxes.
mtgx 8y ago
"Hybrids" of all kinds are usually a dead-end transitional technology. See the fate of "touch-optimized" Symbian and Blackberry OSs. The old timers dislike them for being "different" and the ones who want the new tech want 100% of it, not just 20% - they want the ideal solution in this new paradigm. As such, hybrid tech is doomed from the start.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  It seems to me that houses will always run on electricity, but that doesn't mean backup generators will ever become obsolete, because electricity isn't 100% reliable. For the same reason I think the end state of cars in the forseeable future will/should be PHEVs, not BEVs. People who disdain the former in favor of the later are responding to vague, illogical ideas of purity and simplicity, in my opinion.
  - tialaramex 8y ago
    Purity and simplicity applies to the vehicle's operating costs which are an entirely pragmatic matter. If you have a BEV the drive train is almost childishly simple, and that means fewer things that can go wrong and the things that do go wrong are mostly simple to replace, which in turn means your maintenance costs are low. All the time you're driving a PHEV you're hauling the ICE power system around, even if you don't use it for days, weeks, months, or indeed ever. That's an ongoing cost drag compared to the equivalent BEV. Anti air-pollution and anti climate-change rules will punish PHEVs. Not at first, because a PHEV is better than ICE, but gradually a PHEV is going to be paying surcharges and subject to access rules that don't apply to BEVs, rather than try to distinguish whether your specific PHEV would be a problem on this specific occasion it's simpler to just say "No, buy a BEV". I think you're exactly wrong about this, lots of people are going to dip their toes in the water with a PHEV, expecting to use ICE mode a lot, then when it comes time to replace it they'll think back to the few times the PHEV "paid for itself" by running in ICE mode, and all the times they were fine on battery, and they'll eye the latest BEV with more range, and they'll say to themselves hell with it, let's buy a BEV, we hate spending 8+ hours at a time in a car anyway so let's just make it impossible rather than unpleasant.
perl4ever 8y ago
Speaking only for myself, I get irritated every time a new model comes out without a spare tire. I know it's possible to fit a spare into a hybrid, because some models of Prius have one. But many don't.
closeparen 8y ago
From the prevalence of SUVs where compacts would do, it’s clear that people are not particularly motivated by gas mileage. Even if you are, 50mpg vs 35mpg is just not that compelling when it costs so much in terms of money, mechanical complexity, and driving dynamics. (Unfortunately, automakers seem to be making hybrids less fun, rather than more, until you get to the very high end).
psychometry 8y ago
Because you can't get a decent one for less than 25 grand.
jac_no_k 8y ago
Here in Tokyo I ended up with a Nissan Leaf v.2 (2018 model) with the 40kw/h model with real world range of 150 km (93 miles). It sees about 10 to 20km for errands, ideal city car model. It's home is a stand alone house with a 200v outlet, rare for this area. Typical residences are dense apartments with over subscribed mechanical parking spots. I did consider the Toyota Prius and all it's variants; the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV; and Nissan's e-power series. Several negatives. Both the Prius and Outlander 10% to 20% more expensive then the Leaf. After government discounts; manufacturer discounts; and dealer incentives they ended up nearly 60% more expensive. All of these hybrids had the shortcomings of ICE (internal combustion engine) of dealing with fuel, oil changes, belts, plugs, and others. The PHEV (plug in hybrid electric vehicle) would have worked in my use case as the battery has 30km range. Just recharge daily at home but the price was a turn off. The perceived negative with the Leaf was range. But just the other day I've made a 300km round trip and the three 30 minute breaks to charge the battery was just fine. Japan is easy with such good density of chargers: https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/ We rarely use the charger at home. The Leaf gets charged at the local market whenever it's below 50%. Charge time is limited 30 minutes at the public spots and it's enough to get the charge to over 80%. This means that even for people without access to a charger at home easily use the public spots. The salesperson used the same pitch, saying that Leaf owners regularly drop in for a 30 minute charge and hang out at the lounge with free soft drinks. Anyways, this was my reason and experience on getting BEV instead of a hybrid.
- yuhong 8y ago
  >Here in Tokyo I ended up with a Nissan Leaf v.2 (2018 model) with the 40kw/h model with real world range of 150 km (93 miles). 150 miles is the EPA range, not 150km.
  - jac_no_k 8y ago
    EPA (US environmental protection agency) rates it as 241 km (150 miles) JC08 (Japan's rating agency) rates it at 400km (248 miles). Even the dealer says this is wildly optimistic. At 100% charge, my car reports 220 km. It's starting to "learn" my driving style. My lead foot, my preference for 25dC (77dF) cabin temperature when it's 40dC (104dF) at 90%+ humidity drags this down to real world 150km (93 miles). I'm sure if I drove more conservatively during more reasonable weather conditions, I could easily get over 220km. But with fast charge stations no more then 50km apart, no need to hypermile. It's good to take a break hour and half or so. (Speed limit in Japan is maximum 80kph (49mph) on highways.)
gambiting 8y ago
Oh we want them alright. But they are still far too expensive. I recently bought a brand new VW Polo for about £15k, you just can't buy a hybrid car for that much. And any price difference with a hybrid pays for years of petrol for the Polo - so why bother?

I'm pretty shocked at the low adoption of hybrid cars. Why don't people want them?

by drb91 8y ago

I'm pretty shocked at the low adoption of hybrid cars. Why don't people want them?

Good question. What is your expectation? I found a link that seems to suggest that people do want them (at about 2% of cars sold), maybe just not at the level you expect? They are typically more expensive to buy. People aren't good with long term cost benefit analysis. https://www.hybridcars.com/june-2018-hybrid-cars-sales-dashboard/ https://www.hybridcars.com/june-2018-hybrid-cars-sales-dashb...

drb91 8y ago
It seems absurd in retrospect, but I was envisioning something like 20-30% of cars. Possibly this is due to commuting with rich people in SF where priuses are every other car. 2% makes it seem like we have no hope for addressing global warming--nobody seems to care.
- briandear 8y ago
  When the market is ready for hybrids and electrics, hybrids and electrics will become more plentiful. People seem to forget that individuals have to look out for themselves first. Not everyone is willing to make the financial sacrifice to solve a nebulous problem. As long as China and India have little incentive to fix their pollution issues, the impact of even the entire state of California is literally a drop in the bucket. The thinking is “why should I suffer” when the developing world pretty much does whatever they want. A bunch of Bay Area techies driving electric has about as much impact on climate as a whale farting in the ocean. The sky might be falling, but it isn’t going to be stopped by Americans driving electric.
  - drb91 8y ago
    > People seem to forget that individuals have to look out for themselves first. Why do you say that? I can understand people need to look after themselves, but I can have my own hopes at the same time. Why would you want me to not hope to address this problem? The market certainly isn't going to provide any hope; that's why emissions are considered an externality, because people don't approach the problem rationally (as a society). Tragedy of the commons should be a descriptive trait, not a justification.
  - Animats 8y ago
    Shenzhen just went to 100% electric buses. 16,000 of them. China is going electric faster than the US is.

gamechangr 8y ago

good point....yeah you're right.

gburdell3 8y ago
Sounds like you're talking about electric cars, not hybrids.
- milesvp 8y ago
  Possibly parent post is confused, but apperently to jump start a modern prius, you need to open the fuse box, which is unusual. So maybe he didn't do enough research? As to the mountains statement, here's a piece of anecdata. My boss, who was a big fellow, said he had a really hard time driving through mountain passes with his first gen prius. It just didn't have enough power to drive up steep grades at freeway speeds carrying 300 lbs. He said he was constantly being passed by semi trucks hauling loads...
  - outworlder 8y ago
    That's a problem of the first generation Prius then. Even a Nissan Leaf has absolutely no problem climbing mountains (they will murder the battery charge though – ask me how do I know – although you'll get some of it back as you go back down). A Chevy Volt would do it even better, and that's an actual hybrid. Electric engines have outstanding power relative to their size. The Leaf actual engine is the size of a football.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    The Prius has been redesigned three times since then, so I'm not sure what that tells you. Gasoline engines lose power at altitude, as it happens.

gburdell3 8y ago

My mom just bought a Prius Prime, a plug-in hybrid, a few months ago, and it seems to solve all the problems of dealing with poor charging infrastructure in Texas. It can go around 25 miles on pure electric power, so that takes care of 90% of her driving (charging at home at night). For longer drives, it's a hybrid, so it still has a gas tank and can go just as far as a regular hybrid or gas car.

jlv2 8y ago

BEVs are mechanically simpler, requiring less maintenance and expense (and they eliminate all use of fossil fuels). Hybrids and PHEVs are mechanically more complex than ICEVs, often requiring more things that need maintenance and repair. PHEVs are the worst of all, in my opinion, because on top of everything else, they tend to clog up public charging stations. BEVs with decent range (the Chevy Bolt, Tesla, and some upcoming models) are the real solution. Charge at work and home - and only use DCFC (high current) public charging for trips. Background: I've had a LEAF for 4.5 years as my daily commuter car; it's got (32K miles). For trips last year we got a Tesla Model S (24K miles).

drb91 8y ago
> Charge at work and home - and only use DCFC (high current) public charging for trips. As I essentially only use my car for weekend road trips, how is the long-distance experience hopping from charger to charger? How about country driving--is the density high enough you can check out some nature?
- outworlder 8y ago
  Previous generation Leaf? Debatable. I have one. I plotted a trip from the East Bay to Yosemite and the range seemed enough on paper, even accounting for elevation. But in at least one stretch there was a single quick charge station (ChaDeMo) that I could rely on. If that was out of service I would have issues, as even L2 were not plentiful. On Yosemite itself I could find only one L2. So I did not attempt the trip. Current generation Leaf, Bolt, Tesla? The range would be pretty adequate and comfortable. Not sure about long desert stretches, you could have an idea here: https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/ https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/ Also of note is that a major drawback in the US is the high highway speeds. Drag increases to the speed squared, so going 60mph vs 80mph makes a huge difference. We don't notice as much in internal combustion engines, because a gas tank has so much energy – we may notice in our pockets though.
ams6110 8y ago
You might want to spell out your acronyms on first use. I'm having to guess at what you're talking about.

gameswithgo 8y ago

what makes you think adoption is low? Probably you do not realize how many models you see are hybrid, most don't look different.

rbanffy 8y ago
A couple months back in Ireland Toyota was doing a free upgrade to PHEV on all models sold.

briandear 8y ago

They’re more expensive and the cost differential isn’t offset by the gas savings. Hybrids don’t solve any real problem in the market: gas is plentiful thus relatively cheap. You don’t generally save the cost difference in gas savings unless you keep the car longer than is typical. Even in Europe where gas is far more expensive and taxed, hybrids don’t make financial sense in most cases: hybrids are more expensive and a higher price car means higher sales taxes, offsetting gains from saving gas. A diesel Peugeot 5007 gets over 40 miles to the gallon, which is approaching hybrid levels for that size vehicle but a hybrid can cost €8000 or so more. No way during the normal lifespan would you save that much in gas. Also, if you are financing, you are paying interest on that higher price, thus making the lack of cost savings even more pronounced. Hybrid big rigs on the other hand, could be game changing. A Prius is a statement car more than an actual exercise in frugality. A Honda Civic is a nicer car, doesn’t look like a squashed bean and costs less with more features and plenty of fuel-efficiency. But then a Civic doesn’t give people the same sense of superiority as does a Prius. In the Bay Area replace Prius with Tesla and Civic with Audi and you can make similar arguments.

llampx 8y ago
> Hybrid big rigs on the other hand, could be game changing. How? I believe most of the efficiency of the Prius and other hybrids is realized with city (stop and go) driving. In highway driving it is not any more efficient than any other car with a similar 1.3L engine and aerodynamics.
- CarVac 8y ago
  The Prius is still more efficient on the highway than other cars because nobody (at least in the US) would buy a similar-sized car with a 1.3L engine and no hybrid system to boost power.
serpix 8y ago
In Europe they are the best, especially PHEVs as they lower the cost of driving substantially in addition to getting less taxed. There is no competition cost wise.

AcerbicZero 8y ago

I think its safe to say we're experiencing a true Renaissance of petrol powered cars right now, which makes the EV options fairly unappealing to "car" people such as myself (generally speaking). As for the commodity type of car buyer, the price seems to be the issue I hear most often. Why spend 40k on an EV with limited range and utility, when you could drop 30k on a mid-sized sedan that gets excellent gas mileage, has comical amounts of power, and has a level of luxury that would have required a 6 figure investment 10 years ago? Not to mention you can take it on a long drive without having to pre-plan the entire thing. In a few years, when gas prices are high again I'm sure we'll see the EVs start picking up, and at that point I suspect the charging station issue will solve itself.

outworlder 8y ago
> Why spend 40k on an EV with limited range and utility, Parent said hybrid.

rbanffy 8y ago

Pure electric is sexy. Also, hybrids are mechanically more complicated (that's my excuse).

outworlder 8y ago
Priuses are with the dual drive train. Chevy Volts are not, the generator is much simpler than a normal car engine. You are trading a normal ICE for an electric + generator combination, which is mechanically simpler (transmission is basically non-existent, for example). Not as simple as an EV, but can be simpler than a normal ICE.
- davidgould 8y ago
  Chevy Volts are not serial hybrids as you describe. They have a complex transmission that merges the gasoline engine and electric motor power in several modes for optimal efficiency. Nice car but not simple. Perhaps you meant the Chevy Bolt which is fully electric with no transmission or gasoline engine?
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    Honda has multiple hybrids now that have essentially no transmission - either the engine charges the battery, or it is connected to the wheels as if in top gear. I haven't spent a lot of time driving one, but it seems elegant on paper. Perhaps not quite as smooth as the Toyota hybrid transmissions because it has the clutch engaging or disengaging the direct drive.
- photojosh 8y ago
  It would seem to me that doing it this way is ideal, because you can run the ICE at one specific optimised RPM. Would the losses from from charging the battery would be less than those from running an ICE in inefficient ranges? Is the only downside that you can't get a combined peak power from ICE+electric that's higher than the electric on its own? Am electrical engineer, not mechanical, so I'd be interested in someone who knows about these things chiming in.
- 8y ago

megaman22 8y ago

I think that gas going back down to two-something a gallon again after that period a few years ago where we started getting used to it pushing four bucks, combined with increased fuel efficiency of newer ICE vehicles, and the price premium of hybrids explains a lot of it away.

wcoenen 8y ago
Howcome gasoline is so cheap in the US? Here in Belgium prices are between 1.5 and 1.6 euro/liter, which corresponds to 6.5 to 7 dollar/gallon.
- ph0rque 8y ago
  Taxes (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Gas_and_Diesel_taxes.pdf https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Gas_and_...)
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  Taxes are low and there would be a mass revolt if they were jacked up to European levels.
- aurelianito 8y ago
  Operation Irak Liberation. That's the kind of things the US do to have its gas cheap. Belgium does not do this.
- megaman22 8y ago
  Fracking, and development of all that domestic shale oil that became economical to exploit when oil prices were through the roof previously, as I understand it.
  - shiftpgdn 8y ago
    Oil is sold on a global market. In fact the state of Texas is due to become a large producer/exporter than the nation of Iraq in the next year or two. Differences in price are due to regional taxes.

mtgx 8y ago

"Hybrids" of all kinds are usually a dead-end transitional technology. See the fate of "touch-optimized" Symbian and Blackberry OSs. The old timers dislike them for being "different" and the ones who want the new tech want 100% of it, not just 20% - they want the ideal solution in this new paradigm. As such, hybrid tech is doomed from the start.

perl4ever 8y ago
It seems to me that houses will always run on electricity, but that doesn't mean backup generators will ever become obsolete, because electricity isn't 100% reliable. For the same reason I think the end state of cars in the forseeable future will/should be PHEVs, not BEVs. People who disdain the former in favor of the later are responding to vague, illogical ideas of purity and simplicity, in my opinion.
- tialaramex 8y ago
  Purity and simplicity applies to the vehicle's operating costs which are an entirely pragmatic matter. If you have a BEV the drive train is almost childishly simple, and that means fewer things that can go wrong and the things that do go wrong are mostly simple to replace, which in turn means your maintenance costs are low. All the time you're driving a PHEV you're hauling the ICE power system around, even if you don't use it for days, weeks, months, or indeed ever. That's an ongoing cost drag compared to the equivalent BEV. Anti air-pollution and anti climate-change rules will punish PHEVs. Not at first, because a PHEV is better than ICE, but gradually a PHEV is going to be paying surcharges and subject to access rules that don't apply to BEVs, rather than try to distinguish whether your specific PHEV would be a problem on this specific occasion it's simpler to just say "No, buy a BEV". I think you're exactly wrong about this, lots of people are going to dip their toes in the water with a PHEV, expecting to use ICE mode a lot, then when it comes time to replace it they'll think back to the few times the PHEV "paid for itself" by running in ICE mode, and all the times they were fine on battery, and they'll eye the latest BEV with more range, and they'll say to themselves hell with it, let's buy a BEV, we hate spending 8+ hours at a time in a car anyway so let's just make it impossible rather than unpleasant.

perl4ever 8y ago

Speaking only for myself, I get irritated every time a new model comes out without a spare tire. I know it's possible to fit a spare into a hybrid, because some models of Prius have one. But many don't.

closeparen 8y ago

From the prevalence of SUVs where compacts would do, it’s clear that people are not particularly motivated by gas mileage. Even if you are, 50mpg vs 35mpg is just not that compelling when it costs so much in terms of money, mechanical complexity, and driving dynamics. (Unfortunately, automakers seem to be making hybrids less fun, rather than more, until you get to the very high end).

psychometry 8y ago

Because you can't get a decent one for less than 25 grand.

jac_no_k 8y ago

Here in Tokyo I ended up with a Nissan Leaf v.2 (2018 model) with the 40kw/h model with real world range of 150 km (93 miles). It sees about 10 to 20km for errands, ideal city car model. It's home is a stand alone house with a 200v outlet, rare for this area. Typical residences are dense apartments with over subscribed mechanical parking spots. I did consider the Toyota Prius and all it's variants; the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV; and Nissan's e-power series. Several negatives. Both the Prius and Outlander 10% to 20% more expensive then the Leaf. After government discounts; manufacturer discounts; and dealer incentives they ended up nearly 60% more expensive. All of these hybrids had the shortcomings of ICE (internal combustion engine) of dealing with fuel, oil changes, belts, plugs, and others. The PHEV (plug in hybrid electric vehicle) would have worked in my use case as the battery has 30km range. Just recharge daily at home but the price was a turn off. The perceived negative with the Leaf was range. But just the other day I've made a 300km round trip and the three 30 minute breaks to charge the battery was just fine. Japan is easy with such good density of chargers: https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/ We rarely use the charger at home. The Leaf gets charged at the local market whenever it's below 50%. Charge time is limited 30 minutes at the public spots and it's enough to get the charge to over 80%. This means that even for people without access to a charger at home easily use the public spots. The salesperson used the same pitch, saying that Leaf owners regularly drop in for a 30 minute charge and hang out at the lounge with free soft drinks. Anyways, this was my reason and experience on getting BEV instead of a hybrid.

yuhong 8y ago
>Here in Tokyo I ended up with a Nissan Leaf v.2 (2018 model) with the 40kw/h model with real world range of 150 km (93 miles). 150 miles is the EPA range, not 150km.
- jac_no_k 8y ago
  EPA (US environmental protection agency) rates it as 241 km (150 miles) JC08 (Japan's rating agency) rates it at 400km (248 miles). Even the dealer says this is wildly optimistic. At 100% charge, my car reports 220 km. It's starting to "learn" my driving style. My lead foot, my preference for 25dC (77dF) cabin temperature when it's 40dC (104dF) at 90%+ humidity drags this down to real world 150km (93 miles). I'm sure if I drove more conservatively during more reasonable weather conditions, I could easily get over 220km. But with fast charge stations no more then 50km apart, no need to hypermile. It's good to take a break hour and half or so. (Speed limit in Japan is maximum 80kph (49mph) on highways.)

gambiting 8y ago

Oh we want them alright. But they are still far too expensive. I recently bought a brand new VW Polo for about £15k, you just can't buy a hybrid car for that much. And any price difference with a hybrid pays for years of petrol for the Polo - so why bother?