7 ms·

I really don't get it. The biggest appeal of Apple is their wonderful hardware. I dislike MacOS and it has been worse over the last years. It seems to me that

I really don't get it. The biggest appeal of Apple is their wonderful hardware. I dislike MacOS and it has been worse over the last years. It seems to me that a Hackintosh is the worst of both worlds. If you spend that much time hacking around the hardware anyways, why not use Linux ?

iBelieve 8y ago
One reason would be to use non-Mac hardware and Windows or Linux as your primary OS, but still have access to macOS for the times that you need it, for example to do iOS development. I do some iOS development and primarily use a Dell XPS 13 with Linux on it, and have to switch computers any time I need to work on an iOS project. And specifically about the Mac hardware - I agree MacBooks are the best available, especially the touchpads. But Linux doesn't really support my 2016 MacBook Pro, so I have to use the XPS to run Linux.
- cortesoft 8y ago
  Man, I would so love to be able to run MacOS in a VM on my non-mac machine. I have a crazy powerful desktop, better than any mac hardware I could buy, so that I can run all the different things I want in a VM. I can kind of run a MacOS vm, but the performance is garbage. I just want to be able to run all the operating systems on a single machine, so I can not be limited. Is that too much to ask?
  - komali2 8y ago
    I've been in your boat so many times, and I similarly thought good performance was impossible. Just out of curiousity, did you spend much time tweaking the VM? Out of the box, for example, a Debian VM on my fast hardware does not perform very well. However, if I tweak the amount of RAM it gets (not too much, not too little, juuuuust right), the number of processors, amp up the video memory, try switching on/off 3d acceleration, and mess around with the actual Debian settings as well, I now have near perfect performance on it. There's usually big threads out there on stackoverflow and forums with performance tips for your given host/guest/VM software.
  - jasonkostempski 8y ago
    My solution to that was to RD into a Mac Mini. It was good enough to fulfill my obligations, then I got away from iOS development completely.
eanzenberg 8y ago
Really, that's interesting. I actually love MacOS and consider it the best desktop/laptop OS by multiple margins. My guess is the OS is the reason people keep buying expensive Mac hardware, and that includes the phones and tablets as well.
fredley 8y ago
I hate MacOS and the way it's getting worse every release, but I don't hate it nearly as much as Windows, and how much Windows is getting worse every release.
- bumholio 8y ago
  This generalized hate towards change is typically a symptom of age, not technology. It happens to the best of us.
  - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
    That's a bit too flip, I think - surely people are entitled to dislike some changes? Or is all change equally good? I would agree that macOS has gotten buggier and less flexible, and those don't seem to me to be positive changes.
  - mikestew 8y ago
    To rephrase, you're saying everything is hunky-dory in Mac and Windows Land, and you look forward to every new release as a breath of fresh air of new functionality. To feel otherwise is to be an old fuddy-duddy. I don't know that I could argue that your opinion is mainstream, at least not here.
    - sbuk 8y ago
      “Here” really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. Far too many zealots on either side of this echo chamber.
  - greedo 8y ago
    I've disliked change since I was a teenager. Perhaps you're making a generalization?
    - freehunter 8y ago
      What gave it away, where they said "generalized" or where they said "typically"?
jarcane 8y ago
Their “wonderful” hardware costs a lot of money, is chronically underpowered compared to the competition, basically doesn’t exist in some form factors, and regularly comes with unnecessary and user hostile features. Frankly, I can get the same or better hardware in a Thinkpad, which was designed with actual users in mind rather than aesthetics, is more durable, has better battery life, still has a real keyboard, is still upgradeable and repairable, and also for less money. I have loved Macs all my life, but they have been coasting hard on reputation over delivery for awhile now.
- komali2 8y ago
  I can't for the life of me understand why Thinkpad doesn't nuke Mac in sales, other than I guess marketing? Or just maybe people prefer the "simplicity" of MacOS? Because Apple hardware is pretty? I must be neckbearding, because from an objective standpoint, it doesn't make any damn sense. Swappable batteries (on some models), universally better keyboards (at the very least, more robust!), usually far cheaper for far better internals, ability to swap hardware out, before-market and after-market customization options... This whole "but it just works" thing doesn't make sense to me, because my latest job gave me a macbook pro and it didn't "just work" - desktop config was weird (fullscreen opens in some random ass place and desktop locations were completely randomly assigned), nothing was configurable like I wanted, I couldn't dual boot well (windows/ubuntu on my thinkpad)... No yea, I am definitely neckbearding here, my argument basically boils down to "but it's not Linux wah!"
  - dkonofalski 8y ago
    I think you are neckbearding because it sounds like a lot of your issues just boil down to unfamiliarity with the OS. There's a ton you can configure especially if you're comfortable with the command-line, which, as a Linux user, it sounds like you are.
  - mbell 8y ago
    > Swappable batteries (on some models), I don't see the advantage, why would I pay the size / weight penalty? I don't use my machine long enough on battery in a single sitting to gain any benefit from extra batteries. > universally better keyboards (at the very least, more robust!), That is not an objective statement, its purely subjective. > usually far cheaper for far better internals, Not really, if you actually build a comparable machine the 'apple tax' doesn't even exist for many of their product, and is a couple hundred bucks for the rest. I spend a significant portion of my life on a computer, a couple hundred bucks means nothing. What you can do, and what usually happens when people do cost comparisons, is cheap out on some parts and come up with something considerably cheaper. That's fine, but it's no longer an apples to apples comparison and not a matter of Apple charging too much. > ability to swap hardware out, before-market and after-market customization options... Hardly anyone does this, even for desktops. I've been building my own PCs for ~20 years now. I remember the days of the 440BX chipset, when it came out you may have had a ~250Mhz cpu and 128MB of RAM, but just a couple years later you could toss a ~1Ghz PIII and multiple GB of ram it in cheaply. Thing is, that doesn't happen anymore. CPUs aren't advancing that fast and by the time you would want to upgrade the CPU there is a pretty good chance the new CPU requires a new chipset. RAM is also stagnant, we aren't seeing higher density or cheap prices (quite the opposite on prices actually, they have sky-rocketed). Point is, the last 3 PCs builds I've had are fully expandable and everything is swappable, yet the only component that has changed in any of them is the GPU. Expandability just isn't terribly important anymore.
komali2 8y ago
I think the article isn't really talking about laptops, and I haven't heard anybody singing the praises of Apple desktop solutions recently. Seems like the author depended on MacOS for their workflow?
djsumdog 8y ago
I agree. I ran a Hackintosh off of a GA-P35 motherboard for years (Snow Leopard/10.6). I then scaled down to leave the country and switched on a real Mac running 10.7. Big fucking mistake. Lion was terrible. No expose. Only one row of workspaces. Mission control. And there was no way to downgrade back to 10.6! Oh and I also made the mistake of going from Final Cut 7 to Final Cut X. To be fair, I did edit two complete videos before going back to 7 and eventually ditching Final Cut entirely. FCX is terrible. Shortly after I started running Linux in a VM and got into i3/tiling window managers. Every iteration of macOS has gotten worse and worse. If you really like macOS, then maybe it's worth it to run a hackintosh. I run Win 10 for games and video editing and Linux for absolutely everything else.
- upbeatlinux 8y ago
  Almost exact same setup for me GA-P35 + Snow Leopard running tri-boot (Linux, Windows, OSX). I reclaimed the OSX disk as a data-only partition as it became seriously unmaintainable in 10.7. FWIW I've not had any issues upgrading Linux or Windows at major releases.
spork12 8y ago
I like their software. I get an opinionated *nix under the hood and everything just works. I can text message, my calendar syncs to my iphone, and I like a lot of the macos only apps (fantastical, iterm, forklift, transmit). I've used and still used linux a lot but it can be a pain. Much of the desktop linux software is lacking that extra 10% of polish, there are always little annoyances. And nothing pains me more than needing to load up a QT app in my Gnome environment.
bdcravens 8y ago
I wouldn't call their latest generation of MBPs wonderful. I've had weird video issues with both machines I've had (2016 and 2017 models). Touchbar is a novelty. Initially used TouchID, but haven't for several months now. (using 1Password's browser extension that doesn't support it, and Apple Watch for unlocking the machine). Haven't had the keyboard issues, but I also dock so I rarely use the keyboard. I tried switching to Linux, but so many parts of my workflow I was making compromises on. (for instance, I prefer Tower for git and Transmit for S3) Multi-monitor was a headache.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  My main problem with multi-monitor on OSX is little mouse cursor freezes that happen every few seconds while I'm using it. I've searched and found that it had to do with multi-monitor but have yet to find a solution. Compared to this Linux isn't all that bad. Took me a bit to find the magic xrandr invocation that would allow me to manage screen pseudo-brightness sanely. If I can find out the right way to put together a f.lux-style Night Mode I may switch to Linux on all machines.
  - lozf 8y ago
    You might like RedShift instead of f.lux on Linux.
crispinb 8y ago
> The biggest appeal of Apple is their wonderful hardware. To you. To others (like me) the biggest appeal was the only even vaguely usable & consistent OS, supported by nice hardware. Now they have replaced the nice hardware with thin-and-light toys with fake keyboards, we're in a bind. > It seems to me that a Hackintosh is the worst of both worlds. If you spend that much time hacking around the hardware anyways, why not use Linux ? Quite, I agree. I don't want to futz with either hardware or software, so have gone for a Windows laptop. Windows is profoundly horrible, but it does work for me without having to mess around. We really have reached the point in 2018 where there literally are no good options. Just least-worst for the task at hand.
Semiapies 8y ago
Wonderful, but increasingly underpowered, hardware.
bootlooped 8y ago
The Apple level build-quality hardware seems less consequential when it's a PC that you don't actually have to touch daily. You touch the keyboard and mouse, and you look at it through a monitor. Unlike a Macbook or iPhone where a person would physically interact with it during every normal use, and most or all input devices are built into the unit.
mnm1 8y ago
> The biggest appeal of Apple is their wonderful hardware Not with the latest round of laptops it isn't. One spec of dust and it's toast. But, yes it used to be and on older MBPros it's amazing. I've abused the hell out of mine and it's still going, minus a couple screwholes in the base no longer holding and some dents. Given the abuse, that's amazing.
nottorp 8y ago
What wonderful hardware? Ah, you must be thinking of the laptops. If you need desktop power, anything Apple sells right now is out. iMac Pro included, because of lack of storage (for my particular needs at least).
- lazerwalker 8y ago
  I'd think, that of all the components in a not-user-upgradable stationary desktop computer, storage is the one that's easily solved through external devices. I obviously don't know your particularly needs, and gather there's something I'm missing here — are there e.g. throughput issues with external SSDs? — so I'm curious to learn why my assumption is wrong!
  - nottorp 8y ago
    No external thank you. I'm not buying an all in one octopus. Apple can go [whatever] themselves. For my particulars, I need about a gazillion VMs on local storage. They're not accessed often enough to pay thousands for enough SSD, and the iMac(Pro) only has space for one anyway (4 Tb won't cut it). So I need at least one spinny disk in addition to the system SSD. I am not willing to put said disks on thunderbolt, usb 3.14159 or whatever, I want them inside the case.
oldManRiver 8y ago
How it looks or how it performs? I'll take a Thinkpad every day of the week over a fucking POS that can't even get the keyboard to reliably work.
pkamb 8y ago
Wonderful 6-year-old hardware.

iBelieve 8y ago

One reason would be to use non-Mac hardware and Windows or Linux as your primary OS, but still have access to macOS for the times that you need it, for example to do iOS development. I do some iOS development and primarily use a Dell XPS 13 with Linux on it, and have to switch computers any time I need to work on an iOS project. And specifically about the Mac hardware - I agree MacBooks are the best available, especially the touchpads. But Linux doesn't really support my 2016 MacBook Pro, so I have to use the XPS to run Linux.

cortesoft 8y ago
Man, I would so love to be able to run MacOS in a VM on my non-mac machine. I have a crazy powerful desktop, better than any mac hardware I could buy, so that I can run all the different things I want in a VM. I can kind of run a MacOS vm, but the performance is garbage. I just want to be able to run all the operating systems on a single machine, so I can not be limited. Is that too much to ask?
- komali2 8y ago
  I've been in your boat so many times, and I similarly thought good performance was impossible. Just out of curiousity, did you spend much time tweaking the VM? Out of the box, for example, a Debian VM on my fast hardware does not perform very well. However, if I tweak the amount of RAM it gets (not too much, not too little, juuuuust right), the number of processors, amp up the video memory, try switching on/off 3d acceleration, and mess around with the actual Debian settings as well, I now have near perfect performance on it. There's usually big threads out there on stackoverflow and forums with performance tips for your given host/guest/VM software.
- jasonkostempski 8y ago
  My solution to that was to RD into a Mac Mini. It was good enough to fulfill my obligations, then I got away from iOS development completely.

eanzenberg 8y ago

Really, that's interesting. I actually love MacOS and consider it the best desktop/laptop OS by multiple margins. My guess is the OS is the reason people keep buying expensive Mac hardware, and that includes the phones and tablets as well.

fredley 8y ago

I hate MacOS and the way it's getting worse every release, but I don't hate it nearly as much as Windows, and how much Windows is getting worse every release.

bumholio 8y ago
This generalized hate towards change is typically a symptom of age, not technology. It happens to the best of us.
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  That's a bit too flip, I think - surely people are entitled to dislike some changes? Or is all change equally good? I would agree that macOS has gotten buggier and less flexible, and those don't seem to me to be positive changes.
- mikestew 8y ago
  To rephrase, you're saying everything is hunky-dory in Mac and Windows Land, and you look forward to every new release as a breath of fresh air of new functionality. To feel otherwise is to be an old fuddy-duddy. I don't know that I could argue that your opinion is mainstream, at least not here.
  - sbuk 8y ago
    “Here” really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. Far too many zealots on either side of this echo chamber.
- greedo 8y ago
  I've disliked change since I was a teenager. Perhaps you're making a generalization?
  - freehunter 8y ago
    What gave it away, where they said "generalized" or where they said "typically"?

jarcane 8y ago

Their “wonderful” hardware costs a lot of money, is chronically underpowered compared to the competition, basically doesn’t exist in some form factors, and regularly comes with unnecessary and user hostile features. Frankly, I can get the same or better hardware in a Thinkpad, which was designed with actual users in mind rather than aesthetics, is more durable, has better battery life, still has a real keyboard, is still upgradeable and repairable, and also for less money. I have loved Macs all my life, but they have been coasting hard on reputation over delivery for awhile now.

komali2 8y ago
I can't for the life of me understand why Thinkpad doesn't nuke Mac in sales, other than I guess marketing? Or just maybe people prefer the "simplicity" of MacOS? Because Apple hardware is pretty? I must be neckbearding, because from an objective standpoint, it doesn't make any damn sense. Swappable batteries (on some models), universally better keyboards (at the very least, more robust!), usually far cheaper for far better internals, ability to swap hardware out, before-market and after-market customization options... This whole "but it just works" thing doesn't make sense to me, because my latest job gave me a macbook pro and it didn't "just work" - desktop config was weird (fullscreen opens in some random ass place and desktop locations were completely randomly assigned), nothing was configurable like I wanted, I couldn't dual boot well (windows/ubuntu on my thinkpad)... No yea, I am definitely neckbearding here, my argument basically boils down to "but it's not Linux wah!"
- dkonofalski 8y ago
  I think you are neckbearding because it sounds like a lot of your issues just boil down to unfamiliarity with the OS. There's a ton you can configure especially if you're comfortable with the command-line, which, as a Linux user, it sounds like you are.
- mbell 8y ago
  > Swappable batteries (on some models), I don't see the advantage, why would I pay the size / weight penalty? I don't use my machine long enough on battery in a single sitting to gain any benefit from extra batteries. > universally better keyboards (at the very least, more robust!), That is not an objective statement, its purely subjective. > usually far cheaper for far better internals, Not really, if you actually build a comparable machine the 'apple tax' doesn't even exist for many of their product, and is a couple hundred bucks for the rest. I spend a significant portion of my life on a computer, a couple hundred bucks means nothing. What you can do, and what usually happens when people do cost comparisons, is cheap out on some parts and come up with something considerably cheaper. That's fine, but it's no longer an apples to apples comparison and not a matter of Apple charging too much. > ability to swap hardware out, before-market and after-market customization options... Hardly anyone does this, even for desktops. I've been building my own PCs for ~20 years now. I remember the days of the 440BX chipset, when it came out you may have had a ~250Mhz cpu and 128MB of RAM, but just a couple years later you could toss a ~1Ghz PIII and multiple GB of ram it in cheaply. Thing is, that doesn't happen anymore. CPUs aren't advancing that fast and by the time you would want to upgrade the CPU there is a pretty good chance the new CPU requires a new chipset. RAM is also stagnant, we aren't seeing higher density or cheap prices (quite the opposite on prices actually, they have sky-rocketed). Point is, the last 3 PCs builds I've had are fully expandable and everything is swappable, yet the only component that has changed in any of them is the GPU. Expandability just isn't terribly important anymore.

komali2 8y ago

I think the article isn't really talking about laptops, and I haven't heard anybody singing the praises of Apple desktop solutions recently. Seems like the author depended on MacOS for their workflow?

djsumdog 8y ago

I agree. I ran a Hackintosh off of a GA-P35 motherboard for years (Snow Leopard/10.6). I then scaled down to leave the country and switched on a real Mac running 10.7. Big fucking mistake. Lion was terrible. No expose. Only one row of workspaces. Mission control. And there was no way to downgrade back to 10.6! Oh and I also made the mistake of going from Final Cut 7 to Final Cut X. To be fair, I did edit two complete videos before going back to 7 and eventually ditching Final Cut entirely. FCX is terrible. Shortly after I started running Linux in a VM and got into i3/tiling window managers. Every iteration of macOS has gotten worse and worse. If you really like macOS, then maybe it's worth it to run a hackintosh. I run Win 10 for games and video editing and Linux for absolutely everything else.

upbeatlinux 8y ago
Almost exact same setup for me GA-P35 + Snow Leopard running tri-boot (Linux, Windows, OSX). I reclaimed the OSX disk as a data-only partition as it became seriously unmaintainable in 10.7. FWIW I've not had any issues upgrading Linux or Windows at major releases.

spork12 8y ago

I like their software. I get an opinionated *nix under the hood and everything just works. I can text message, my calendar syncs to my iphone, and I like a lot of the macos only apps (fantastical, iterm, forklift, transmit). I've used and still used linux a lot but it can be a pain. Much of the desktop linux software is lacking that extra 10% of polish, there are always little annoyances. And nothing pains me more than needing to load up a QT app in my Gnome environment.

bdcravens 8y ago

I wouldn't call their latest generation of MBPs wonderful. I've had weird video issues with both machines I've had (2016 and 2017 models). Touchbar is a novelty. Initially used TouchID, but haven't for several months now. (using 1Password's browser extension that doesn't support it, and Apple Watch for unlocking the machine). Haven't had the keyboard issues, but I also dock so I rarely use the keyboard. I tried switching to Linux, but so many parts of my workflow I was making compromises on. (for instance, I prefer Tower for git and Transmit for S3) Multi-monitor was a headache.

vinceguidry 8y ago
My main problem with multi-monitor on OSX is little mouse cursor freezes that happen every few seconds while I'm using it. I've searched and found that it had to do with multi-monitor but have yet to find a solution. Compared to this Linux isn't all that bad. Took me a bit to find the magic xrandr invocation that would allow me to manage screen pseudo-brightness sanely. If I can find out the right way to put together a f.lux-style Night Mode I may switch to Linux on all machines.
- lozf 8y ago
  You might like RedShift instead of f.lux on Linux.

crispinb 8y ago

> The biggest appeal of Apple is their wonderful hardware. To you. To others (like me) the biggest appeal was the only even vaguely usable & consistent OS, supported by nice hardware. Now they have replaced the nice hardware with thin-and-light toys with fake keyboards, we're in a bind. > It seems to me that a Hackintosh is the worst of both worlds. If you spend that much time hacking around the hardware anyways, why not use Linux ? Quite, I agree. I don't want to futz with either hardware or software, so have gone for a Windows laptop. Windows is profoundly horrible, but it does work for me without having to mess around. We really have reached the point in 2018 where there literally are no good options. Just least-worst for the task at hand.

Semiapies 8y ago

Wonderful, but increasingly underpowered, hardware.

bootlooped 8y ago

The Apple level build-quality hardware seems less consequential when it's a PC that you don't actually have to touch daily. You touch the keyboard and mouse, and you look at it through a monitor. Unlike a Macbook or iPhone where a person would physically interact with it during every normal use, and most or all input devices are built into the unit.

mnm1 8y ago

> The biggest appeal of Apple is their wonderful hardware Not with the latest round of laptops it isn't. One spec of dust and it's toast. But, yes it used to be and on older MBPros it's amazing. I've abused the hell out of mine and it's still going, minus a couple screwholes in the base no longer holding and some dents. Given the abuse, that's amazing.

nottorp 8y ago

What wonderful hardware? Ah, you must be thinking of the laptops. If you need desktop power, anything Apple sells right now is out. iMac Pro included, because of lack of storage (for my particular needs at least).

lazerwalker 8y ago
I'd think, that of all the components in a not-user-upgradable stationary desktop computer, storage is the one that's easily solved through external devices. I obviously don't know your particularly needs, and gather there's something I'm missing here — are there e.g. throughput issues with external SSDs? — so I'm curious to learn why my assumption is wrong!
- nottorp 8y ago
  No external thank you. I'm not buying an all in one octopus. Apple can go [whatever] themselves. For my particulars, I need about a gazillion VMs on local storage. They're not accessed often enough to pay thousands for enough SSD, and the iMac(Pro) only has space for one anyway (4 Tb won't cut it). So I need at least one spinny disk in addition to the system SSD. I am not willing to put said disks on thunderbolt, usb 3.14159 or whatever, I want them inside the case.

oldManRiver 8y ago

How it looks or how it performs? I'll take a Thinkpad every day of the week over a fucking POS that can't even get the keyboard to reliably work.

pkamb 8y ago

Wonderful 6-year-old hardware.