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The 13th amendment only ended slavery in name. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been

The 13th amendment only ended slavery in name. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted[...] The current system is absolutely a political gimme to appease the south, or at the very least the south of the past.

arcticbull 8y ago
I continue to have a hard time seeing the difference between a US prison farm and any other (slave) labor camp. The UN ILO should have IMO effectively abolished US labor camps in 1957 with resolution 105 [1]. It bans among other things its use "as a method of mobilizing and using labour for purposes of economic development." As such prisoners in the US can be loaned out to private enterprise, an argument should be made. Not to mention, forget immigrants, nothing undercuts wages payable to US workers quite like slave labor. I actually can't see why the US system isn't in violation of resolution 29 in 1930 where forced labor is only permitted when under "supervision and control of a public authority and that the person carrying it out is not hired to or placed at the disposal of private individuals, companies or associations." [1] When your system is "universally condemned" by the United Nations, maybe it's time for another look? [1] http://www.ilo.org/global/standards/subjects-covered-by-international-labour-standards/forced-labour/lang--en/index.htm http://www.ilo.org/global/standards/subjects-covered-by-inte...
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  I don't think anyone is arguing that these are not slave labor camps. These are slave labor camps. That fact is not in question. The question we're debating is why they are legal in the US. My theory is that the government made them legal to appease Southerners after the Civil War. Some people disagree, but the evidence in terms of the Congressional record of the time definitely points to a deal to appease Southerners.
  - cmurf 8y ago
    The North was maybe a little more than an inch less racist than the South. It's just that the line of slavery being right or wrong went right through that inch. Institutional racism has come from everywhere, in particular by the power of the silent majority. The Nixon Southern strategy was not to appease only Southerners. It was to appease the ignorant. Bigots with malice in mind. It's worth listening to the Lee Atwater interview he didn't want released until he died. They had a vile plan, they put it into action, it was successful, and it's still happening. And such ideas and policies are far worse than just a word that begins with the letter n. https://www.thenation.com/article/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/ https://www.thenation.com/article/exclusive-lee-atwaters-inf...
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    Emancipation was a political decision that was made for practical purposes. Race baiting incited draft riots in the north. Low wage labor was very much threatened by the prospect of freed slaves migrating. Prison labor isn’t a uniquely American institution and IMO was less about appeasing southerners and more about practical management of prisons.
  - DuckHuntMaster 8y ago
    There is s stark difference actually. All prisoners is the US are voulenteers (how many are there who didn't make a choice to do something knowingly illegal?). I don't know why you think they are laborers either. None of the prisons I have toured have anyone working who doesn't want too. Sure they aren't paid much, but they can learn trade skills and the value of work.
    - delecti 8y ago
      > how many are there who didn't make a choice to do something knowingly illegal Not that this is a valid point anyway, but not none. https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/Exonerations-in-the-United-States-Map.aspx https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/Exonerat... > None of the prisons I have toured have anyone working who doesn't want too Your anecdote is not data. Forced labor absolutely exists in US prisons.
    - arcticbull 8y ago
      In fact, the US is listed on Wikipedia under the Labor Camp article alongside Russian gulags [1] and has a whole index of its forced-labor camps [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_camp [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > My theory is that the government made them legal to appease Southerners after the Civil War. It didn't; this is indisputable, because they existed and were legal, both in and out of the South, before the Civil War. You could argue that they were not outlawed at the time chattel slavery was in order to mitigate the imposition on the South being done by the Civil War amendments (13-15), but that's implausible for a number of reasons, but most notably that being punitive was major feature of th Civil War Amendments, the cooling to punitive measures and accommodationist approach to the South didn't take long to appear after they were imposed, but it was a later thing. > the evidence in terms of the Congressional record of the time Specific citations would be welcome.
DuckHuntMaster 8y ago
>The current system is absolutely a political gimme to appease the south, or at the very least the south of the past. Actually, every civilized country in the world (including Nordic countries) have basically the same law. Are you suggesting that we abolish incarceration in the US?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  Incarceration does not require penal servitude.

arcticbull 8y ago

I continue to have a hard time seeing the difference between a US prison farm and any other (slave) labor camp. The UN ILO should have IMO effectively abolished US labor camps in 1957 with resolution 105 [1]. It bans among other things its use "as a method of mobilizing and using labour for purposes of economic development." As such prisoners in the US can be loaned out to private enterprise, an argument should be made. Not to mention, forget immigrants, nothing undercuts wages payable to US workers quite like slave labor. I actually can't see why the US system isn't in violation of resolution 29 in 1930 where forced labor is only permitted when under "supervision and control of a public authority and that the person carrying it out is not hired to or placed at the disposal of private individuals, companies or associations." [1] When your system is "universally condemned" by the United Nations, maybe it's time for another look? [1] http://www.ilo.org/global/standards/subjects-covered-by-international-labour-standards/forced-labour/lang--en/index.htm http://www.ilo.org/global/standards/subjects-covered-by-inte...

bilbo0s 8y ago
I don't think anyone is arguing that these are not slave labor camps. These are slave labor camps. That fact is not in question. The question we're debating is why they are legal in the US. My theory is that the government made them legal to appease Southerners after the Civil War. Some people disagree, but the evidence in terms of the Congressional record of the time definitely points to a deal to appease Southerners.
- cmurf 8y ago
  The North was maybe a little more than an inch less racist than the South. It's just that the line of slavery being right or wrong went right through that inch. Institutional racism has come from everywhere, in particular by the power of the silent majority. The Nixon Southern strategy was not to appease only Southerners. It was to appease the ignorant. Bigots with malice in mind. It's worth listening to the Lee Atwater interview he didn't want released until he died. They had a vile plan, they put it into action, it was successful, and it's still happening. And such ideas and policies are far worse than just a word that begins with the letter n. https://www.thenation.com/article/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/ https://www.thenation.com/article/exclusive-lee-atwaters-inf...
- Spooky23 8y ago
  Emancipation was a political decision that was made for practical purposes. Race baiting incited draft riots in the north. Low wage labor was very much threatened by the prospect of freed slaves migrating. Prison labor isn’t a uniquely American institution and IMO was less about appeasing southerners and more about practical management of prisons.
- DuckHuntMaster 8y ago
  There is s stark difference actually. All prisoners is the US are voulenteers (how many are there who didn't make a choice to do something knowingly illegal?). I don't know why you think they are laborers either. None of the prisons I have toured have anyone working who doesn't want too. Sure they aren't paid much, but they can learn trade skills and the value of work.
  - delecti 8y ago
    > how many are there who didn't make a choice to do something knowingly illegal Not that this is a valid point anyway, but not none. https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/Exonerations-in-the-United-States-Map.aspx https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/Exonerat... > None of the prisons I have toured have anyone working who doesn't want too Your anecdote is not data. Forced labor absolutely exists in US prisons.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    In fact, the US is listed on Wikipedia under the Labor Camp article alongside Russian gulags [1] and has a whole index of its forced-labor camps [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_camp [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > My theory is that the government made them legal to appease Southerners after the Civil War. It didn't; this is indisputable, because they existed and were legal, both in and out of the South, before the Civil War. You could argue that they were not outlawed at the time chattel slavery was in order to mitigate the imposition on the South being done by the Civil War amendments (13-15), but that's implausible for a number of reasons, but most notably that being punitive was major feature of th Civil War Amendments, the cooling to punitive measures and accommodationist approach to the South didn't take long to appear after they were imposed, but it was a later thing. > the evidence in terms of the Congressional record of the time Specific citations would be welcome.

DuckHuntMaster 8y ago

>The current system is absolutely a political gimme to appease the south, or at the very least the south of the past. Actually, every civilized country in the world (including Nordic countries) have basically the same law. Are you suggesting that we abolish incarceration in the US?

dragonwriter 8y ago
Incarceration does not require penal servitude.