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My experience has been that those who have a problem with me not having a BS are generally the type of...limited individuals I wouldn't want to work with, anywa

My experience has been that those who have a problem with me not having a BS are generally the type of...limited individuals I wouldn't want to work with, anyway.

donw 19y ago
That is an incredibly patronizing attitude to have. They are 'limited' because they use a very sensible method to screen applicants? It is very true that not having a degree shouldn't be a bar to employment, but the process of getting that piece of paper does display a level of discipline that is very important when it comes to getting things done. I know that someone with a baccalaureate in mathematics or any of the sciences has had to work very, very hard in order to get that degree, and that they have needed to do a number of things which they considered obvious and boring, because those things were essential to getting the job done. I know there are people who don't have degrees who have that sort of dedication; in fact, one of my friends fits the bill perfectly. These people will demonstrate their value in other ways, but the majority of people who blow off college are, frankly, lazy and disorganized, and often think that they are much more skilled than they really are. This goes double for programmers, who already have a natural habit of overestimating their abilities. From the perspective of an employer, I would think very carefully about hiring someone without a degree. I would probably not even consider hiring someone without some college experience, unless they had a stellar work record and about a mile of ironclad references.
- nostrademons 19y ago
  I have a B.A. in computer science from a top college, and I agree completely with boredguy. Working on an open-source project or consumer website or other project teaches you to overcome hurdles, but only when they're necessary. If you're responsible for results, then you have an incentive to find and take whatever shortcuts you can. You plow through only the obstacles that absolutely are essential to getting the job done. Getting a degree teaches you to work very hard at whatever your professors tell you to do. A lot of it is pointless; a lot of it is stupid. You do it anyway, because you have to. But if you do too much of this, you start seeing things that are really pointless and stupid as necessary, and do them anyway. This is the kiss of death for a startup: you have to be ruthless about inefficiency, and nobody (other than the blatantly dishonest folks who cheat their way through college) learns to be ruthless about inefficiency through a college degree. I'd stop well short of saying I'd never hire anyone with a college degree, because I know a lot of smart folks who have one. But I won't make the degree more than a tiny portion of who I decide to hire. (I'd refuse to hire anyone that had never taken their own project from conception to completion, however - this will weed out virtually all of the lazy and disorganized, and also weed out people who are only good at following orders.)
  - aswanson 19y ago
    this will weed out virtually all of the lazy and disorganized, and also weed out people who are only good at following orders This is the number one thing to look out for, that can't be easily gamed. If somebody has a 4.0 GPA from a top school but no external side projects built on their own volition, they are probably not what you want, unless you run a very big company.

My experience has been that those who have a problem with me not having a BS are generally the type of...limited individuals I wouldn't want to work with, anyway.

donw 19y ago

That is an incredibly patronizing attitude to have. They are 'limited' because they use a very sensible method to screen applicants? It is very true that not having a degree shouldn't be a bar to employment, but the process of getting that piece of paper does display a level of discipline that is very important when it comes to getting things done. I know that someone with a baccalaureate in mathematics or any of the sciences has had to work very, very hard in order to get that degree, and that they have needed to do a number of things which they considered obvious and boring, because those things were essential to getting the job done. I know there are people who don't have degrees who have that sort of dedication; in fact, one of my friends fits the bill perfectly. These people will demonstrate their value in other ways, but the majority of people who blow off college are, frankly, lazy and disorganized, and often think that they are much more skilled than they really are. This goes double for programmers, who already have a natural habit of overestimating their abilities. From the perspective of an employer, I would think very carefully about hiring someone without a degree. I would probably not even consider hiring someone without some college experience, unless they had a stellar work record and about a mile of ironclad references.

nostrademons 19y ago
I have a B.A. in computer science from a top college, and I agree completely with boredguy. Working on an open-source project or consumer website or other project teaches you to overcome hurdles, but only when they're necessary. If you're responsible for results, then you have an incentive to find and take whatever shortcuts you can. You plow through only the obstacles that absolutely are essential to getting the job done. Getting a degree teaches you to work very hard at whatever your professors tell you to do. A lot of it is pointless; a lot of it is stupid. You do it anyway, because you have to. But if you do too much of this, you start seeing things that are really pointless and stupid as necessary, and do them anyway. This is the kiss of death for a startup: you have to be ruthless about inefficiency, and nobody (other than the blatantly dishonest folks who cheat their way through college) learns to be ruthless about inefficiency through a college degree. I'd stop well short of saying I'd never hire anyone with a college degree, because I know a lot of smart folks who have one. But I won't make the degree more than a tiny portion of who I decide to hire. (I'd refuse to hire anyone that had never taken their own project from conception to completion, however - this will weed out virtually all of the lazy and disorganized, and also weed out people who are only good at following orders.)
- aswanson 19y ago
  this will weed out virtually all of the lazy and disorganized, and also weed out people who are only good at following orders This is the number one thing to look out for, that can't be easily gamed. If somebody has a 4.0 GPA from a top school but no external side projects built on their own volition, they are probably not what you want, unless you run a very big company.