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[citation needed] you won't know if it works until you try, has there been any experimental applications of the nordic model in the US that show it to be uneffe

[citation needed] you won't know if it works until you try, has there been any experimental applications of the nordic model in the US that show it to be uneffective? there has been at least one in canada that I'm aware of,(admittedly only targeting youth offenders, so not conclusive, but at least an indication I guess) and the results were pretty good: https://theconversation.com/judges-sentence-youth-offenders-to-chess-with-promising-results-96172 https://theconversation.com/judges-sentence-youth-offenders-... edit to add, I'm not sure you can call the Canadian trail a copy of "the nordic system" but it is similar to it in that it focuses on rehab rather than punishment. I like to think you could adapt from "the nordic system" to make it work in the us.

nostalgeek 8y ago
> [citation needed] Norway doesn't have a network of violent gangs sitting in their prisons. > I'm not sure you can call the Canadian Canada is mostly on the path to copy US when it comes to gang violence.
- aqme28 8y ago
  > Norway doesn't have a network of violent gangs sitting in their prisons. Is this something that allows them to have a rehabilitative prison system, or something that is caused by having a rehabilitative prison system?
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Its something that is caused by the vast majority of people in the country being white Norwegian citizens. They have very few people (comparatively) who are social outcasts on the basis of being from somewhere else or not speaking the language or being a different color or all three. There is much less need for gangs as an alternative path to acceptance by a group.
    - braythwayt 8y ago
      There are lots and lots of very violent criminal gangs made up of white people from the US who speak English. Many of them are, in fact, white supremacist gangs. I do not see any evidence that gangs have anything to do with being immigrants. I think gangs have something to do with a culture having an underclass.
      - billner 8y ago
        There's less reason for racist white gangs to form in Norway when the country is largely homogeneous.
        braythwayt 8y ago
        Dudes, I am not engaging with you any further. Obviously, you have this idea that when black people form a gang, they are bad, but when white people form a gang, well, it’s because of the black people forcing them to form a gang. Sorry, but further refuting of this kind of reasoning is beneath me. I see you very clearly for what you are and for the propaganda and disinformation you are trying to spread.
        billner 8y ago
        I'm not even the same person as OP so your last sentence doesn't make any sense. I was only pointing out that white supremacist gangs forming in the US has nothing to do with Norway. I also don't think white gangs are only in reaction to other gangs and I also don't think black gangs can all be simply labeled as "bad" or that white gangs are "good."
- astura 8y ago
  .... okay but you haven't established why "[having] a network of violent gangs sitting in prisons" causes rehabilitation programs to fail. I'm not saying your wrong or anything, I don't know, just you don't have a an argument that's even a tiny bit convincing. You're also getting into "chicken or egg" territory.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  Canada is not on path to copy the US when it comes to gang violence, unless you have some numbers to back that up. Yes, it's gone up lately, back to levels 10 years ago, while overall criminality and especially gun crimes have gone down. Please find some evidence to compare rate changes between the US and Canada. [1] You should really look at the numbers. The rape rate in the US is 17X Canada. Murders 3X. And the US age of criminal responsibility is SIX?! [2] It's pretty clear whatever system you advocate for isn't working. [1] https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/7-charts-that-tell-the-story-of-homicide-in-canada/ https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/7-charts-that-tell-the-s... [2] http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/Unit...
  - astura 8y ago
    The "age of criminal responsibility" is extremely misleading. There is no uniform "age of criminal responsibility" in the US, each state is different and each law is different, and the site you posted fully acknowledges that[1]. Prosecutors also have a very heavy amount of leeway in this realm. [1] DEFINITION: The age at which a person is no longer excluded from criminal liability. The lowest age is indicated for countries where there isn’t a single age limit, for example where different states have different regulations (such as the USA) or there is different limits for boy and girls (such as in Iran). The spectrum is specifically wide for the USA and Mexico (both 6-12 years). Several US states do not stipulate any minimal age for criminal responsibility at all.
    - arcticbull 8y ago
      At no point whatsoever is a 6 year old criminally responsible for anything - and you can tell, because they're 6. This is what a 6 year old look like? [1] This feels apologist - prosecutors should have zero leeway in this matter. States where there isn't one are even worse IMO. [1] https://www.momjunction.com/articles/gift-ideas-for-6-year-old-boys_00392641/?ref=content https://www.momjunction.com/articles/gift-ideas-for-6-year-o... Editing since I can't reply: I may have misread your reply to mine, I reacted because in my mind, that there's a range or discretion is irrelevant because it's so far out there in the first place. Cleaned it up to be less pointed, to better line up with my intent and hopefully yours.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
This was the point of halfway houses. They were intended to be an alternative, or supplement, to incarceration to help genuinely rehabilitate convicts and help prepare them for release back into general society. They include therapy, drug treatment, job training, and so on. The NYT ran a report [1] on these institutions some time back. Recidivism rates were actually higher than those who just were sent to prison with a 67% recidivism rate for halfway house residents compared to 60% for prison-only convicts. And of course those rates are just within 3 years. They get much higher over time. The US is relatively unique in that we have a relatively large population of individuals that seem to resist all efforts at stopping them from engaging in crime. This is not really a problem in places like Scandinavia. The absolute and utter failure of rehabilitation driven systems further emphasizes the difference. For further statistics and information on various sorts of data related to prison, prisoners, recidivism, and so on you check out the Bureau of Justice Statistics [2]. Their page is loaded with all the information you could ever want. --- In my opinion the major problem is once a culture develops around criminality it becomes practically impossible to detach the criminality from the culture, as resisting reform becomes part of the culture. I grew up in this very culture and it's quite clear that people talking about reformation just have not been around this very much at all. Prison is not seen as game over. It's just another part of the game, and prison time is worn as a badge of honor once people are out, as it shows how 'hard' they are, and gains instant respect. For instance have you ever thought about how completely idiotic resisting arrest is? You're not going to do anything except add years to your sentence, and get either beat down or killed in the process of it. But the reason people do this is again because it shows how 'hard' they are. You or I might be thinking 'Well how can I minimize my prison time and get back to real life?' so we would never behave this way, and then engage in all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to explain why somebody else would. But the issue is that we're not part of this culture, and to understand why things the way they are you really have to live through it. In that culture prison is just a regular part of what we'd call 'real life' so this sort of loss minimization calculus simply does not exist. The more important question then is where did this culture come from, how did it emerge and spread, and how could that be stopped in the future? But that's an entirely different topic. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/nyregion/pennsylvania-study-finds-halfway-houses-dont-reduce-recidivism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/nyregion/pennsylvania-stu... [2] - https://bjs.gov/ https://bjs.gov/

nostalgeek 8y ago

> [citation needed] Norway doesn't have a network of violent gangs sitting in their prisons. > I'm not sure you can call the Canadian Canada is mostly on the path to copy US when it comes to gang violence.

aqme28 8y ago
> Norway doesn't have a network of violent gangs sitting in their prisons. Is this something that allows them to have a rehabilitative prison system, or something that is caused by having a rehabilitative prison system?
- ams6110 8y ago
  Its something that is caused by the vast majority of people in the country being white Norwegian citizens. They have very few people (comparatively) who are social outcasts on the basis of being from somewhere else or not speaking the language or being a different color or all three. There is much less need for gangs as an alternative path to acceptance by a group.
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    There are lots and lots of very violent criminal gangs made up of white people from the US who speak English. Many of them are, in fact, white supremacist gangs. I do not see any evidence that gangs have anything to do with being immigrants. I think gangs have something to do with a culture having an underclass.
    - billner 8y ago
      There's less reason for racist white gangs to form in Norway when the country is largely homogeneous.
      - braythwayt 8y ago
        Dudes, I am not engaging with you any further. Obviously, you have this idea that when black people form a gang, they are bad, but when white people form a gang, well, it’s because of the black people forcing them to form a gang. Sorry, but further refuting of this kind of reasoning is beneath me. I see you very clearly for what you are and for the propaganda and disinformation you are trying to spread.
        billner 8y ago
        I'm not even the same person as OP so your last sentence doesn't make any sense. I was only pointing out that white supremacist gangs forming in the US has nothing to do with Norway. I also don't think white gangs are only in reaction to other gangs and I also don't think black gangs can all be simply labeled as "bad" or that white gangs are "good."
astura 8y ago
.... okay but you haven't established why "[having] a network of violent gangs sitting in prisons" causes rehabilitation programs to fail. I'm not saying your wrong or anything, I don't know, just you don't have a an argument that's even a tiny bit convincing. You're also getting into "chicken or egg" territory.
arcticbull 8y ago
Canada is not on path to copy the US when it comes to gang violence, unless you have some numbers to back that up. Yes, it's gone up lately, back to levels 10 years ago, while overall criminality and especially gun crimes have gone down. Please find some evidence to compare rate changes between the US and Canada. [1] You should really look at the numbers. The rape rate in the US is 17X Canada. Murders 3X. And the US age of criminal responsibility is SIX?! [2] It's pretty clear whatever system you advocate for isn't working. [1] https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/7-charts-that-tell-the-story-of-homicide-in-canada/ https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/7-charts-that-tell-the-s... [2] http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/Unit...
- astura 8y ago
  The "age of criminal responsibility" is extremely misleading. There is no uniform "age of criminal responsibility" in the US, each state is different and each law is different, and the site you posted fully acknowledges that[1]. Prosecutors also have a very heavy amount of leeway in this realm. [1] DEFINITION: The age at which a person is no longer excluded from criminal liability. The lowest age is indicated for countries where there isn’t a single age limit, for example where different states have different regulations (such as the USA) or there is different limits for boy and girls (such as in Iran). The spectrum is specifically wide for the USA and Mexico (both 6-12 years). Several US states do not stipulate any minimal age for criminal responsibility at all.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    At no point whatsoever is a 6 year old criminally responsible for anything - and you can tell, because they're 6. This is what a 6 year old look like? [1] This feels apologist - prosecutors should have zero leeway in this matter. States where there isn't one are even worse IMO. [1] https://www.momjunction.com/articles/gift-ideas-for-6-year-old-boys_00392641/?ref=content https://www.momjunction.com/articles/gift-ideas-for-6-year-o... Editing since I can't reply: I may have misread your reply to mine, I reacted because in my mind, that there's a range or discretion is irrelevant because it's so far out there in the first place. Cleaned it up to be less pointed, to better line up with my intent and hopefully yours.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

This was the point of halfway houses. They were intended to be an alternative, or supplement, to incarceration to help genuinely rehabilitate convicts and help prepare them for release back into general society. They include therapy, drug treatment, job training, and so on. The NYT ran a report [1] on these institutions some time back. Recidivism rates were actually higher than those who just were sent to prison with a 67% recidivism rate for halfway house residents compared to 60% for prison-only convicts. And of course those rates are just within 3 years. They get much higher over time. The US is relatively unique in that we have a relatively large population of individuals that seem to resist all efforts at stopping them from engaging in crime. This is not really a problem in places like Scandinavia. The absolute and utter failure of rehabilitation driven systems further emphasizes the difference. For further statistics and information on various sorts of data related to prison, prisoners, recidivism, and so on you check out the Bureau of Justice Statistics [2]. Their page is loaded with all the information you could ever want. --- In my opinion the major problem is once a culture develops around criminality it becomes practically impossible to detach the criminality from the culture, as resisting reform becomes part of the culture. I grew up in this very culture and it's quite clear that people talking about reformation just have not been around this very much at all. Prison is not seen as game over. It's just another part of the game, and prison time is worn as a badge of honor once people are out, as it shows how 'hard' they are, and gains instant respect. For instance have you ever thought about how completely idiotic resisting arrest is? You're not going to do anything except add years to your sentence, and get either beat down or killed in the process of it. But the reason people do this is again because it shows how 'hard' they are. You or I might be thinking 'Well how can I minimize my prison time and get back to real life?' so we would never behave this way, and then engage in all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to explain why somebody else would. But the issue is that we're not part of this culture, and to understand why things the way they are you really have to live through it. In that culture prison is just a regular part of what we'd call 'real life' so this sort of loss minimization calculus simply does not exist. The more important question then is where did this culture come from, how did it emerge and spread, and how could that be stopped in the future? But that's an entirely different topic. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/nyregion/pennsylvania-study-finds-halfway-houses-dont-reduce-recidivism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/nyregion/pennsylvania-stu... [2] - https://bjs.gov/ https://bjs.gov/