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Apple Pay is secure, does not expose your details and is integrated with the banks in the bank end. The last thing you want is to have a plethora of insecure a

Apple Pay is secure, does not expose your details and is integrated with the banks in the bank end. The last thing you want is to have a plethora of insecure adhock hacked together contactless payment systems.

icebraining 8y ago
Isn't that what the Store review process is supposed to prevent?
- dogma1138 8y ago
  The store review process can only achieve so much, it also has no control over the backend. Apple Pay is fully integrated with the banks and issuers you get a notification form your bank when you add a card and you can revoke it without going through Apple if your phone is lost. You also are assured that your card details are never exposed because Apple does not use the PAN for billing, and it also does not expose your billing/shipping information without your acknowledgment and consent when used to purchase items on Apple Pay enabled services.
grezql 8y ago
thats not the problem here. Developers like me dont want to access apple pay but NFC. Lets say you distribute nfc stickers to local store, and when someone swipes their iphone on it, it should wake up my app and fetch the production information. Such ideas wont work with apples NFC limitation. They require you to first open the app, then swipe. Many innovation ideas are hampered by Apples behaviour. Its not about security, its about Apple pays rollout and adoption
- dogma1138 8y ago
  You are moving the goalposts. You can read NFC tags on iOS devices without a problem, I don’t want an NFC signal being able to initiate any action on my device, you shouldn’t want that either. For mission specific implementations e.g. inventory checking or shopping costumers can have the app active it’s much less of an inconvenience and a security risk than being able to wake up apps and communicate with them without the user being aware of such activity. While you can argue that many innovative ideas are hampered by Apple this isn’t one of them they are in the right on this issue and many other security related issues.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    I don’t want an NFC signal being able to initiate any action on my device Isn't that exactly what happens with Apple Pay?
    - obituary_latte 8y ago
      No, you have to initiate payment from the device (phone/watch).
      - dogma1138 8y ago
        You only need to approve it, however it’s not the equivalent I trust Apple much more than any random 3rd party vendor. Heck as far as security goes I trust them more than my bank.
        pwinnski 8y ago
        I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with the parent commenter. On my phone, I can wave my phone around the reader as much as I want, but until I double-click the side button, Apple Pay will not be engaged. I must then also authenticate, but there are no circumstances I'm aware of under which terminals can prompt Apple Pay to start. Which I believe is as it should be.
        dogma1138 8y ago
        Something is odd with the phone or reader because all contactless payment readers in the UK activate Apple Pay on mine. As in I don’t need to double click I even have that option disabled it will prompt the wallet auth even if the phone is locked.
- naravara 8y ago
  >They require you to first open the app, then swipe. I really wouldn’t want to allow anyone with an NFC chip to be able to open apps on my phone. Which app gets used for what should be under the user’s direction, not the store’s or the developer’s. Habituation users into trusting any random kiosk to put data on their phone without input from them is terrible practice.
- sjwright 8y ago
  I wouldn't want your app on my phone if you insist it forces my phone to do things when in proximity to your tags. Talk about user hostile—it's my device, not yours. If you don't like Apple's product design philosophy, that's fine. There is plenty of healthy competition in the smartphone market. I for one am glad there is a product like the iPhone which doesn't implement NFC as an anarchistic free-for-all.
  - jarfil 8y ago
    Your file browser also "forces your phone to do things" depending on the file format, using whatever default application to open the file. It's the same with NFC tags, and you can easily stop that by turning NFC off.
    - sjwright 8y ago
      All of the files on my phone are there because I chose to put those files there. I choose which files I tap on. And I choose when I tap on them. I don't choose where you stick your NFC tags.
      - jarfil 8y ago
        You do choose when to turn NFC on, when to unlock your phone, and where to tap it. Remember it's NFC, not WiFi we're talking about, you need to get your phone within less than half an inch from the tag for it to work.
        sjwright 8y ago
        If your expect me to unlock the phone and "turn NFC on" before scanning a tag then great, Apple supports that mode of operation today. What's the problem?
kalleboo 8y ago
> we have these stupid slow bluetooth adhoc payment systems Sounds like they already have a plethora of insecure adhoc hacked together contactless payment systems, just even worse than if Apple allowed third-party NFC
- dogma1138 8y ago
  No we don’t because those are not allowed on iOS devices, if you want to use payments you need to integrate with Apple Pay. Apple Pay even supports travel passes these days any use of NFC for payment authorization is supported in currently the most secure implementation we have with high assurance for privacy.
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    > if you want to use payments you need to integrate with Apple Pay I dunno about that, I spent last month paying at retail for drinks, groceries, etc by scanning QR codes using https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/swish-payments/id563204724?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/swish-payments/id563204724?m...
  - sschueller 8y ago
    Yeah you do, they may not be insecure but they are "hacks" like Twint [1] which uses bluetooth and qrcodes to process payments: [1] https://www.twint.ch/en/ https://www.twint.ch/en/

icebraining 8y ago

Isn't that what the Store review process is supposed to prevent?

dogma1138 8y ago
The store review process can only achieve so much, it also has no control over the backend. Apple Pay is fully integrated with the banks and issuers you get a notification form your bank when you add a card and you can revoke it without going through Apple if your phone is lost. You also are assured that your card details are never exposed because Apple does not use the PAN for billing, and it also does not expose your billing/shipping information without your acknowledgment and consent when used to purchase items on Apple Pay enabled services.

grezql 8y ago

thats not the problem here. Developers like me dont want to access apple pay but NFC. Lets say you distribute nfc stickers to local store, and when someone swipes their iphone on it, it should wake up my app and fetch the production information. Such ideas wont work with apples NFC limitation. They require you to first open the app, then swipe. Many innovation ideas are hampered by Apples behaviour. Its not about security, its about Apple pays rollout and adoption

dogma1138 8y ago
You are moving the goalposts. You can read NFC tags on iOS devices without a problem, I don’t want an NFC signal being able to initiate any action on my device, you shouldn’t want that either. For mission specific implementations e.g. inventory checking or shopping costumers can have the app active it’s much less of an inconvenience and a security risk than being able to wake up apps and communicate with them without the user being aware of such activity. While you can argue that many innovative ideas are hampered by Apple this isn’t one of them they are in the right on this issue and many other security related issues.
- icebraining 8y ago
  I don’t want an NFC signal being able to initiate any action on my device Isn't that exactly what happens with Apple Pay?
  - obituary_latte 8y ago
    No, you have to initiate payment from the device (phone/watch).
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      You only need to approve it, however it’s not the equivalent I trust Apple much more than any random 3rd party vendor. Heck as far as security goes I trust them more than my bank.
      - pwinnski 8y ago
        I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with the parent commenter. On my phone, I can wave my phone around the reader as much as I want, but until I double-click the side button, Apple Pay will not be engaged. I must then also authenticate, but there are no circumstances I'm aware of under which terminals can prompt Apple Pay to start. Which I believe is as it should be.
        dogma1138 8y ago
        Something is odd with the phone or reader because all contactless payment readers in the UK activate Apple Pay on mine. As in I don’t need to double click I even have that option disabled it will prompt the wallet auth even if the phone is locked.
naravara 8y ago
>They require you to first open the app, then swipe. I really wouldn’t want to allow anyone with an NFC chip to be able to open apps on my phone. Which app gets used for what should be under the user’s direction, not the store’s or the developer’s. Habituation users into trusting any random kiosk to put data on their phone without input from them is terrible practice.
sjwright 8y ago
I wouldn't want your app on my phone if you insist it forces my phone to do things when in proximity to your tags. Talk about user hostile—it's my device, not yours. If you don't like Apple's product design philosophy, that's fine. There is plenty of healthy competition in the smartphone market. I for one am glad there is a product like the iPhone which doesn't implement NFC as an anarchistic free-for-all.
- jarfil 8y ago
  Your file browser also "forces your phone to do things" depending on the file format, using whatever default application to open the file. It's the same with NFC tags, and you can easily stop that by turning NFC off.
  - sjwright 8y ago
    All of the files on my phone are there because I chose to put those files there. I choose which files I tap on. And I choose when I tap on them. I don't choose where you stick your NFC tags.
    - jarfil 8y ago
      You do choose when to turn NFC on, when to unlock your phone, and where to tap it. Remember it's NFC, not WiFi we're talking about, you need to get your phone within less than half an inch from the tag for it to work.
      - sjwright 8y ago
        If your expect me to unlock the phone and "turn NFC on" before scanning a tag then great, Apple supports that mode of operation today. What's the problem?

kalleboo 8y ago

> we have these stupid slow bluetooth adhoc payment systems Sounds like they already have a plethora of insecure adhoc hacked together contactless payment systems, just even worse than if Apple allowed third-party NFC

dogma1138 8y ago
No we don’t because those are not allowed on iOS devices, if you want to use payments you need to integrate with Apple Pay. Apple Pay even supports travel passes these days any use of NFC for payment authorization is supported in currently the most secure implementation we have with high assurance for privacy.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  > if you want to use payments you need to integrate with Apple Pay I dunno about that, I spent last month paying at retail for drinks, groceries, etc by scanning QR codes using https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/swish-payments/id563204724?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/swish-payments/id563204724?m...
- sschueller 8y ago
  Yeah you do, they may not be insecure but they are "hacks" like Twint [1] which uses bluetooth and qrcodes to process payments: [1] https://www.twint.ch/en/ https://www.twint.ch/en/