4 ms·

Well for my family member who was/is a heroin addict, 6 months in jail meant 6 months of not stealing from her family. 6 months of not neglecting her kid. 6 m

Well for my family member who was/is a heroin addict, 6 months in jail meant 6 months of not stealing from her family. 6 months of not neglecting her kid. 6 months of sobriety to reflect on where her life was going. She did not stay clean, and I'm sure we can do better as a society to rehab our people, but for 6 months she was limited in the damage she could do to those around her. I'm pretty conflicted on the topic

emiliobumachar 8y ago
How could one possibly not neglect one's kid while in jail? Presumably someone or some institution stepped in, probably the family. How much was the jailing necessary for the kid to get this help?
- jothezero 8y ago
  By screaming at the child, hitting the child, taking drugs around the child.... Keep the easy questions coming.
  - nostoc 8y ago
    That's abuse, not neglect.
    - parsnips 8y ago
      A distinction without a meaningful difference.
      - ilovetux 8y ago
        I believe that the difference is meaningful. Neglect is a very specific type of abuse. Physical, emotional and sexual abuse are all very different from neglect. All forms of abuse are different in terms of the psychological effects on the abused, societal reactions to both parties, motivation on the part of the abuser and much more.
- skate22 8y ago
  She was not going to willingly give up the kid, even to family. I worded that poorly, but what i meant is that the child was no longer being neglected
sewercake 8y ago
All of those things would be even easier if the system was rehabilitative!
maxxxxx 8y ago
I hope you agree that sending that person to jail is only a short term solution. As far as I know prison is quite expensive. Wouldn't it be more effective to send her to rehab instead? It seems the US is using prison as the catch all for people who have trouble living in society. Be it for mental health reasons or drug addiction.
- skate22 8y ago
  She has been to rehab, and she was able to get drugs & pregnant while there. I think you are underestimating the power of a heroin addiction and overestimating the effectiveness of rehab in the US, especially for unwilling participants
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I have dealt with (alcohol) addicts myself. I still prefer them going to rehab repeatedly instead of going to jail. Rehab is probably cheaper and there is at least some chance that things will improve. Sending addicts to jail just makes things worse. Improving the quality of rehab is certainly worth a discussion. But there the US mindset gets in the way that doesn't want to spend money on welfare but instead prefers to spend more money on prisons. The only problem is that prisons don't know that their role now is not only to hold criminals but also people with mental health issues or addiction.
pas 8y ago
> 6 months of sobriety to reflect on where her life was going. https://anaheimlighthouse.com/blog/drug-use-in-us-prisons/ https://anaheimlighthouse.com/blog/drug-use-in-us-prisons/
- skate22 8y ago
  She came out clean, it just only lasted a few months.
arcticbull 8y ago
I'm confident she did drugs in prison. Because opiates are a way to escape, and prison sucks, and prison has drugs. [1] If you want to help people get off drugs, don't criminalize them, send them to rehab, end of story. Portugal decriminalized all drugs and started sending people to mandatory rehab if they had problems and the rate of drug harm went from one of the highest in the EU to one of the lowest in just 15 years. Portugal has 3 overdose deaths per million citizens, compared to the EU average of 17.3 [2, 3] The US is 213 per million, accounting for 1 in every 4 worldwide. [4] Clearly the US system does not work. It's crazy, right, that a country where all drugs are legal has a 100x lower overdose rate than one where drugs crimes are enforced as strictly as humanly possible. [1] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/13/17020002/prison-opioid-epidemic-medications-addiction https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/13/17020002/p... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic... [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-decriminalised-drugs-14-years-ago-and-now-hardly-anyone-dies-from-overdosing-10301780.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-dec... [4] https://www.overdoseday.com/resources/facts-stats/ https://www.overdoseday.com/resources/facts-stats/
- skate22 8y ago
  She came out clean and relapsed several months later, but who am i to argue with your links
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    Let me start off by saying I feel for you and your family. It's important to remember a single data point (an anecdote) is no substitute for large-scale studies (country-wide in the case of Portugal). The data I gave you covers millions and millions of individuals, and in my opinion, and should be weighed accordingly. I'd love for you to read them and provide your own thoughts rather than just saying "no, I have one data point close to me and advocate policy based on it." Drug addictions are truly complicated things. In regards to the relapse after release, there's some evidence that addictions are in part situational. By the end of the Vietnam war, some 20% of service members where addicted to heroin. 95% of them were no longer addicted to heroin as soon as they returned home. Whereas people with additions in the US had a 90% chase of relapse after they returned home to the environment in which they used to be addicted. [1] I even notice this to a smaller degree myself, I drink more in SF - when I'm there, I drink more, when I travel, I drink less even controlling for everything else to the best of my abilities (again, an anecdote not a study). Prison is a hammer, we need a scalpel, and it's important we use data dispassionately to solve this problem. What we have so far is clearly not working, and it's time to look outside and adopt things that have worked elsewhere even if they fly in the face of the status quo. I would argue especially if they fly in the face of the status quo. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/01/02/144431794/what-vietnam-taught-us-about-breaking-bad-habits https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/01/02/1444317...

emiliobumachar 8y ago

How could one possibly not neglect one's kid while in jail? Presumably someone or some institution stepped in, probably the family. How much was the jailing necessary for the kid to get this help?

jothezero 8y ago
By screaming at the child, hitting the child, taking drugs around the child.... Keep the easy questions coming.
- nostoc 8y ago
  That's abuse, not neglect.
  - parsnips 8y ago
    A distinction without a meaningful difference.
    - ilovetux 8y ago
      I believe that the difference is meaningful. Neglect is a very specific type of abuse. Physical, emotional and sexual abuse are all very different from neglect. All forms of abuse are different in terms of the psychological effects on the abused, societal reactions to both parties, motivation on the part of the abuser and much more.
skate22 8y ago
She was not going to willingly give up the kid, even to family. I worded that poorly, but what i meant is that the child was no longer being neglected

sewercake 8y ago

All of those things would be even easier if the system was rehabilitative!

maxxxxx 8y ago

I hope you agree that sending that person to jail is only a short term solution. As far as I know prison is quite expensive. Wouldn't it be more effective to send her to rehab instead? It seems the US is using prison as the catch all for people who have trouble living in society. Be it for mental health reasons or drug addiction.

skate22 8y ago
She has been to rehab, and she was able to get drugs & pregnant while there. I think you are underestimating the power of a heroin addiction and overestimating the effectiveness of rehab in the US, especially for unwilling participants
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I have dealt with (alcohol) addicts myself. I still prefer them going to rehab repeatedly instead of going to jail. Rehab is probably cheaper and there is at least some chance that things will improve. Sending addicts to jail just makes things worse. Improving the quality of rehab is certainly worth a discussion. But there the US mindset gets in the way that doesn't want to spend money on welfare but instead prefers to spend more money on prisons. The only problem is that prisons don't know that their role now is not only to hold criminals but also people with mental health issues or addiction.

pas 8y ago

> 6 months of sobriety to reflect on where her life was going. https://anaheimlighthouse.com/blog/drug-use-in-us-prisons/ https://anaheimlighthouse.com/blog/drug-use-in-us-prisons/

skate22 8y ago
She came out clean, it just only lasted a few months.

arcticbull 8y ago

I'm confident she did drugs in prison. Because opiates are a way to escape, and prison sucks, and prison has drugs. [1] If you want to help people get off drugs, don't criminalize them, send them to rehab, end of story. Portugal decriminalized all drugs and started sending people to mandatory rehab if they had problems and the rate of drug harm went from one of the highest in the EU to one of the lowest in just 15 years. Portugal has 3 overdose deaths per million citizens, compared to the EU average of 17.3 [2, 3] The US is 213 per million, accounting for 1 in every 4 worldwide. [4] Clearly the US system does not work. It's crazy, right, that a country where all drugs are legal has a 100x lower overdose rate than one where drugs crimes are enforced as strictly as humanly possible. [1] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/13/17020002/prison-opioid-epidemic-medications-addiction https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/13/17020002/p... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic... [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-decriminalised-drugs-14-years-ago-and-now-hardly-anyone-dies-from-overdosing-10301780.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-dec... [4] https://www.overdoseday.com/resources/facts-stats/ https://www.overdoseday.com/resources/facts-stats/

skate22 8y ago
She came out clean and relapsed several months later, but who am i to argue with your links
- arcticbull 8y ago
  Let me start off by saying I feel for you and your family. It's important to remember a single data point (an anecdote) is no substitute for large-scale studies (country-wide in the case of Portugal). The data I gave you covers millions and millions of individuals, and in my opinion, and should be weighed accordingly. I'd love for you to read them and provide your own thoughts rather than just saying "no, I have one data point close to me and advocate policy based on it." Drug addictions are truly complicated things. In regards to the relapse after release, there's some evidence that addictions are in part situational. By the end of the Vietnam war, some 20% of service members where addicted to heroin. 95% of them were no longer addicted to heroin as soon as they returned home. Whereas people with additions in the US had a 90% chase of relapse after they returned home to the environment in which they used to be addicted. [1] I even notice this to a smaller degree myself, I drink more in SF - when I'm there, I drink more, when I travel, I drink less even controlling for everything else to the best of my abilities (again, an anecdote not a study). Prison is a hammer, we need a scalpel, and it's important we use data dispassionately to solve this problem. What we have so far is clearly not working, and it's time to look outside and adopt things that have worked elsewhere even if they fly in the face of the status quo. I would argue especially if they fly in the face of the status quo. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/01/02/144431794/what-vietnam-taught-us-about-breaking-bad-habits https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/01/02/1444317...