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"Journalist Alexandra Heminsley noticed that neither Apple Watch nor Fitbit let you log pushing a pram as exercise, despite the fact that everything from barre

"Journalist Alexandra Heminsley noticed that neither Apple Watch nor Fitbit let you log pushing a pram as exercise, despite the fact that everything from barre to Zumba was there already. Jogging prams are absolutely everywhere now...and yet, according to Apple and Fitbit, it’s not happening.” As a runner and a parent, this might annoy me. However, is it really a sign of (concious or unconscious) sexism? Don’t men run with prams in the US?

cwmma 8y ago
I'm bit sure I've ever seen a man in the stroller division of a race I've been at.
- dspillett 8y ago
  I see people with pushchairs regularly at the local park runs, both female and male individuals who are there on their own (with child, obviously) or in one case a couple who take it in turns to take the stroller or try for a PB. I think I see more solo men than solo women with pushchairs, though I've not paid that much attention so I might be noticing the men more due to them standing out to me because they breach some subconscious expectation/bias. Or maybe I notice more due to jealousy: one of the regulars is usually a minute or two faster than my best even with the pushchair! (context for reference: I'm in the UK, and a middle-aged, single, happily childless, male)
  - bshimmin 8y ago
    Our local Park Run has two or three men who regularly run around with pushchairs, at least one of whom gets admirably impressive times. I have never seen a woman do it. There are usually a couple of hundred people running.
arrrg 8y ago
Yeah, if pushing a pram is seen as a stereotypically “female” activity and because of tat further outside the lived reality of the men writing the software, then it could be sexism. I do agree, though, that this is more generally something indicating that diversity in teams working on software all kinds of people use is important. I think a father could just as well have helped out here, because I can’t imagine that you wouldn’t immediately think of pushing the pram as an activity you want to track if you were a parent heavily involved with your child. It’s obvious, really.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  I push a pram every day but I think of it as "walking" not "pushing a pram", if I was working on this feature it would not be obvious to me to include it as a separate activity. I don't have much experience with activity trackers though. Do they also have option for if you're carrying a backpack or not, and other similar minor consequential details?
  - arrrg 8y ago
    They might differentiate between walking and hiking, for example.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      What differentiates hiking from walking?
      - dwighttk 8y ago
        (On the Apple Watch) the different activities use different algorithms to estimate your calorie burn. I would guess that hiking gives you a higher burn rate for the same speed to account for possibly more difficult terrain and carrying a backpack. I don’t know this for certain. I’ve never tried to use the hiking algorithm on my walking path to compare them.
      - mbreese 8y ago
        If I were to guess, I’d say altitude differences and terrain. It takes less energy to walk on flat, paved sidewalks than to hike a trail.
        llampx 8y ago
        GPS can take care of altitude gain/loss. Rougher terrain may well have greater calorie burn though.
      - astura 8y ago
Udo_Schmitz 8y ago
Apple maps doesn't know anything about bicycles either.
- cup-of-tea 8y ago
  And this is also part of why transport method diversity on technical teams matters.
JamesBaxter 8y ago
I don’t know if it’s sexism or not but is it possible that Fitbit and Apple Watch aren’t so good at tracking your movement/steps when your arms are stable whilst pushing a pram? I think a lot of the data comes from your vertical movement as you walk. Maybe they just can’t track it.
- zfdrdg 8y ago
  As a Dad I can confirm. Many fewer steps counted while pushing a stroller.
imarg 8y ago
I would not be surprised if other activities were missing also. Why do we have to assume that everything missing is gender specific? On the other hand it would be a big surprise for me if the people that designed the Fitbit's period tracking feature did not include or at least consulted women. Something else that surprised me is the bit about crash test dummies. I found it difficult to believe that no female dummies existed. A quick search showed that in fact dummies modelling females exist since the 70s. However it seems they were derived from the male dummies. It seems it really took many more years to design a female dummy from the ground up (although I found articles from at least 2006 about it).
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  I wonder if they'll ever make female KEMAR dummies and accessories? http://kemar.us/ http://kemar.us/ https://www.gras.dk/products/head-torso-simulators-kemar/product/733-45bb https://www.gras.dk/products/head-torso-simulators-kemar/pro... https://www.gras.dk/products/accessories https://www.gras.dk/products/accessories
cup-of-tea 8y ago
The irony is that the journalist is implicitly saying that pushing a pram is a "woman thing" which is sexist.
megaman22 8y ago
I'd guess the simplest explanation is that pushing a stroller isn't an activity already categorized in one of the standard calories per hour exercise charts that everybody uses. Never attribute something to maliciousness when laziness can explain the phenomenon equally well.
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  The other opposing force to including everything is user interface design and usability. You don't want to put too many irrelevant things in the menu or list of activities you can log, goal you can pursue, or questions you must answer. The system can filter out some things that don't apply to you, like only suggesting pram jogging if you have small kids, but then it has to ask if you have small kids to know that, and it might leave out people who help take care of other people's kids. So should it also ask about those personal details? Should it ask for your home's geolocation so it can check if you live on a steep street, before suggesting you pedal your kids around in a Bakfiets, so it doesn't accidentally give you advice that leads to a heart attack? So you have to balance what you put in with how much the system needs to know about you, and how many irrelevant questions and suggestions it's going to throw at you.
DonHopkins 8y ago
I work on an online diabetes prevention system [1] that lets you select goals and log physical activities including various kinds of exercise. It doesn't include pram jogging (which I never heard of before, so I read it as "param jogging", which sounds to me like a cool Python function decorator technique). That's a great idea that's new to me, and I'm thankful to the author for pointing it out, and I'll suggest we add it. (In the Netherlands where it's flat, parents pedal their kids around in a Bakfiets. [2]) The program's content was mostly designed by a woman [3], so I don't think omitting pram jogging was a sexist decision on her part -- it's more that you can't think of everything, or keep up with every new trend that's happening (and if you try, the menus are way too long so the user interface is difficult to use). I agree with the article that it's outrageously patronizing and sexist for Fitbit to tell women how soon they must get over their periods! [1] https://turnaroundhealth.com/ https://turnaroundhealth.com/ [2] https://www.fresheconomicthinking.com/2010/06/bakfiets-is-australia-ready-for-cargo.html https://www.fresheconomicthinking.com/2010/06/bakfiets-is-au... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_PS3lzlqpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_PS3lzlqpg
rimunroe 8y ago
> Don’t men run with prams in the US? I certainly see a lot more women running with prams than men on the trail near me. The majority of childcare is still overwhelmingly handled by women. > However, is it really a sign of (concious or unconscious) sexism? This is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to see in a sexist culture where women are either deterred from entering certain careers/sectors or forced to leave. If you don't have a lot of women around, you probably won't notice as many things that disproportionately affect women.

cwmma 8y ago

I'm bit sure I've ever seen a man in the stroller division of a race I've been at.

dspillett 8y ago
I see people with pushchairs regularly at the local park runs, both female and male individuals who are there on their own (with child, obviously) or in one case a couple who take it in turns to take the stroller or try for a PB. I think I see more solo men than solo women with pushchairs, though I've not paid that much attention so I might be noticing the men more due to them standing out to me because they breach some subconscious expectation/bias. Or maybe I notice more due to jealousy: one of the regulars is usually a minute or two faster than my best even with the pushchair! (context for reference: I'm in the UK, and a middle-aged, single, happily childless, male)
- bshimmin 8y ago
  Our local Park Run has two or three men who regularly run around with pushchairs, at least one of whom gets admirably impressive times. I have never seen a woman do it. There are usually a couple of hundred people running.

arrrg 8y ago

Yeah, if pushing a pram is seen as a stereotypically “female” activity and because of tat further outside the lived reality of the men writing the software, then it could be sexism. I do agree, though, that this is more generally something indicating that diversity in teams working on software all kinds of people use is important. I think a father could just as well have helped out here, because I can’t imagine that you wouldn’t immediately think of pushing the pram as an activity you want to track if you were a parent heavily involved with your child. It’s obvious, really.

kalleboo 8y ago
I push a pram every day but I think of it as "walking" not "pushing a pram", if I was working on this feature it would not be obvious to me to include it as a separate activity. I don't have much experience with activity trackers though. Do they also have option for if you're carrying a backpack or not, and other similar minor consequential details?
- arrrg 8y ago
  They might differentiate between walking and hiking, for example.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    What differentiates hiking from walking?
    - dwighttk 8y ago
      (On the Apple Watch) the different activities use different algorithms to estimate your calorie burn. I would guess that hiking gives you a higher burn rate for the same speed to account for possibly more difficult terrain and carrying a backpack. I don’t know this for certain. I’ve never tried to use the hiking algorithm on my walking path to compare them.
    - mbreese 8y ago
      If I were to guess, I’d say altitude differences and terrain. It takes less energy to walk on flat, paved sidewalks than to hike a trail.
      - llampx 8y ago
        GPS can take care of altitude gain/loss. Rougher terrain may well have greater calorie burn though.
    - astura 8y ago

Udo_Schmitz 8y ago

Apple maps doesn't know anything about bicycles either.

cup-of-tea 8y ago
And this is also part of why transport method diversity on technical teams matters.

JamesBaxter 8y ago

I don’t know if it’s sexism or not but is it possible that Fitbit and Apple Watch aren’t so good at tracking your movement/steps when your arms are stable whilst pushing a pram? I think a lot of the data comes from your vertical movement as you walk. Maybe they just can’t track it.

zfdrdg 8y ago
As a Dad I can confirm. Many fewer steps counted while pushing a stroller.

imarg 8y ago

I would not be surprised if other activities were missing also. Why do we have to assume that everything missing is gender specific? On the other hand it would be a big surprise for me if the people that designed the Fitbit's period tracking feature did not include or at least consulted women. Something else that surprised me is the bit about crash test dummies. I found it difficult to believe that no female dummies existed. A quick search showed that in fact dummies modelling females exist since the 70s. However it seems they were derived from the male dummies. It seems it really took many more years to design a female dummy from the ground up (although I found articles from at least 2006 about it).

DonHopkins 8y ago
I wonder if they'll ever make female KEMAR dummies and accessories? http://kemar.us/ http://kemar.us/ https://www.gras.dk/products/head-torso-simulators-kemar/product/733-45bb https://www.gras.dk/products/head-torso-simulators-kemar/pro... https://www.gras.dk/products/accessories https://www.gras.dk/products/accessories

cup-of-tea 8y ago

The irony is that the journalist is implicitly saying that pushing a pram is a "woman thing" which is sexist.

megaman22 8y ago

I'd guess the simplest explanation is that pushing a stroller isn't an activity already categorized in one of the standard calories per hour exercise charts that everybody uses. Never attribute something to maliciousness when laziness can explain the phenomenon equally well.

DonHopkins 8y ago
The other opposing force to including everything is user interface design and usability. You don't want to put too many irrelevant things in the menu or list of activities you can log, goal you can pursue, or questions you must answer. The system can filter out some things that don't apply to you, like only suggesting pram jogging if you have small kids, but then it has to ask if you have small kids to know that, and it might leave out people who help take care of other people's kids. So should it also ask about those personal details? Should it ask for your home's geolocation so it can check if you live on a steep street, before suggesting you pedal your kids around in a Bakfiets, so it doesn't accidentally give you advice that leads to a heart attack? So you have to balance what you put in with how much the system needs to know about you, and how many irrelevant questions and suggestions it's going to throw at you.

DonHopkins 8y ago

I work on an online diabetes prevention system [1] that lets you select goals and log physical activities including various kinds of exercise. It doesn't include pram jogging (which I never heard of before, so I read it as "param jogging", which sounds to me like a cool Python function decorator technique). That's a great idea that's new to me, and I'm thankful to the author for pointing it out, and I'll suggest we add it. (In the Netherlands where it's flat, parents pedal their kids around in a Bakfiets. [2]) The program's content was mostly designed by a woman [3], so I don't think omitting pram jogging was a sexist decision on her part -- it's more that you can't think of everything, or keep up with every new trend that's happening (and if you try, the menus are way too long so the user interface is difficult to use). I agree with the article that it's outrageously patronizing and sexist for Fitbit to tell women how soon they must get over their periods! [1] https://turnaroundhealth.com/ https://turnaroundhealth.com/ [2] https://www.fresheconomicthinking.com/2010/06/bakfiets-is-australia-ready-for-cargo.html https://www.fresheconomicthinking.com/2010/06/bakfiets-is-au... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_PS3lzlqpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_PS3lzlqpg

rimunroe 8y ago

> Don’t men run with prams in the US? I certainly see a lot more women running with prams than men on the trail near me. The majority of childcare is still overwhelmingly handled by women. > However, is it really a sign of (concious or unconscious) sexism? This is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to see in a sexist culture where women are either deterred from entering certain careers/sectors or forced to leave. If you don't have a lot of women around, you probably won't notice as many things that disproportionately affect women.