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This may explain why so many otherwise highly developed non western courtries don’t reach swimming to everyone. England and France were big naval powers of the

This may explain why so many otherwise highly developed non western courtries don’t reach swimming to everyone. England and France were big naval powers of the time and had much more reason than just watersports to mandate swimming skills for the populace.

j9461701 8y ago
Historically sailors were actually quite bad swimmers. The thinking was that any man who fell overboard was basically dead anyway, as the ship was unlikely to be able to turn around and get him before he drifted away (sailing boats aren't exactly precision vessels). All swimming enabled a man to do was prolong his suffering, treading water in the middle of the open ocean for a few days before dying of exposure. More-over, much of British naval strength was press ganged and an inability to swim meant once aboard the men were easier for officers to control. They were stuck there, and couldn't jump ship and swim to shore to escape their bondage.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  Unless in very close formation with other ships, it's no problem to let a long rope trail a big sailing ship. Leaving men overboard to die was only barbarity. They went back for the captain's favorite cabin boy...
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  > Historically sailors were actually quite bad swimmers It's not just historically. A lot of people who work on the water these days in developing countries are still terrible swimmers. One of my friends was a dive instructor in Indonesia for a few months, and apparently the guys skippering their dive launches couldn't swim. Since it was Indonesia, they also didn't bother with wearing life jackets. I don't know how they managed to spend their life living on an island and not learn how to swim. Apparently Fijians are also terrible swimmers. It just doesn't make sense to me. Obviously they aren't going to swim between the islands, but it seems like a fairly essential life skill when boats are your main method of transport.
  - adrianratnapala 8y ago
    Swimming is overwhelmingly (though not entirely) a recreational thing and mostly found in rich countries. A few professionals in poor countries know how to swim, dive and do all sorts of things. But everyone else has more important things to do than to learn how to swim. And swimming is something you should either learn to do fairly well, or not do at all. Most poor mothers will let their kids play soccer on a quiet street -- but they will balk at letting 'em swim unless they get real training.
- peteretep 8y ago
  > Historically sailors were actually quite bad swimmers. The thinking was that any man who fell overboard was basically dead anyway, as the ship was unlikely to be able to turn around and get him before he drifted away This may be true, but doesn't pass the sniff test. There are many situations with small boats (to and from the shore, other ships) and when the boat is stationary when being overboard would be easily remedied.
  - macintux 8y ago
    A small boat can stop immediately and recover someone in normal circumstances. Even those who can’t swim should be able to stay above water long enough to be rescued in such a situation.
    - c2h5oh 8y ago
      Even a small sailboat will need to do 3 turns and position itself against the wind when approaching person in water. That takes long enough for someone who can't swim to drown even under perfect weather conditions.
      - macintux 8y ago
        I thought the context was the rowboats used to ferry people to/from ocean-faring ships.
- eftychis 8y ago
  This really depends on the area of origin. Greek sailors , for instance, were really good swimmers on average (recall Greece comprises several islands with "short" distances; fishing and sponge diving were/are also a side job for sailors and swimming was certainly part of a child's entertainment (a good source here is 19 century and later literature). I am not sure about the argument that falling in the water was a death sentence so that is the reason swimming was unnecessary. Consider that naval life for instance after the 14th century had a high accident rate. In such cases, being an above good swimmer is a highly desirable skill. I think the main reason for the lack of swimming was British and French sailors were "conscripted" in 18-19 centuries [0], and the average citizen at the time did not leave close to shore. At the time not living in close proximity to the sea practically meant, due to travel being a luxury of time (especially during the pre-enlightenment, i.e. feudalism, era), that you never learned to swim as a kid. That places a high-learning curve on an individual who does not have the luxury for such an investment. (Tried to find some credible research and reference; was disappointed with the material; Here is an article on the learning vantage point of an adult https://adequateman.deadspin.com/an-adults-guide-to-learning-to-swim-1718027248 https://adequateman.deadspin.com/an-adults-guide-to-learning...) Thus my point is that Feudalism [1] essentially removed access to the sea to people in mainland/central Europe during pre-adulthood, by land-locking families and later eras (industrialism) perpetuated this trend. Thus swimming became even more of a luxury, which is inline with the existence of a written manuals (certainly not aimed for the average citizen), that seem to focus on basic familiarity with the water. These seem similar to other luxury manuals at the time, such as fencing. Then the average sailor from these regions did not have prior familiarity with water. The time period the article focuses on is a post-Byzantium and post Venician era. I think the article kind of jumps ahead and focuses not on Western Europe but only on North and Central Europe. What was the "swimming state" of Roman era Germania or Britain? How can one draw conclusions about Northern Europe from the lack of access to baths in Rome? The reasoning of the article leaves a lot to be desired there. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism
  - baud147258 8y ago
    There's one little problem with your argumentation: most of the population was living either along the shoreline or along a river, which would allow access to large bodies of water. And sailor recruitment was massively done in coastal cities.
- robaato 8y ago
  Grew up in a fishing village in north east Scotland - many of the trawlermen could't swim for similar reasons.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

j9461701 8y ago

Historically sailors were actually quite bad swimmers. The thinking was that any man who fell overboard was basically dead anyway, as the ship was unlikely to be able to turn around and get him before he drifted away (sailing boats aren't exactly precision vessels). All swimming enabled a man to do was prolong his suffering, treading water in the middle of the open ocean for a few days before dying of exposure. More-over, much of British naval strength was press ganged and an inability to swim meant once aboard the men were easier for officers to control. They were stuck there, and couldn't jump ship and swim to shore to escape their bondage.

jessaustin 8y ago
Unless in very close formation with other ships, it's no problem to let a long rope trail a big sailing ship. Leaving men overboard to die was only barbarity. They went back for the captain's favorite cabin boy...
toomanybeersies 8y ago
> Historically sailors were actually quite bad swimmers It's not just historically. A lot of people who work on the water these days in developing countries are still terrible swimmers. One of my friends was a dive instructor in Indonesia for a few months, and apparently the guys skippering their dive launches couldn't swim. Since it was Indonesia, they also didn't bother with wearing life jackets. I don't know how they managed to spend their life living on an island and not learn how to swim. Apparently Fijians are also terrible swimmers. It just doesn't make sense to me. Obviously they aren't going to swim between the islands, but it seems like a fairly essential life skill when boats are your main method of transport.
- adrianratnapala 8y ago
  Swimming is overwhelmingly (though not entirely) a recreational thing and mostly found in rich countries. A few professionals in poor countries know how to swim, dive and do all sorts of things. But everyone else has more important things to do than to learn how to swim. And swimming is something you should either learn to do fairly well, or not do at all. Most poor mothers will let their kids play soccer on a quiet street -- but they will balk at letting 'em swim unless they get real training.
peteretep 8y ago
> Historically sailors were actually quite bad swimmers. The thinking was that any man who fell overboard was basically dead anyway, as the ship was unlikely to be able to turn around and get him before he drifted away This may be true, but doesn't pass the sniff test. There are many situations with small boats (to and from the shore, other ships) and when the boat is stationary when being overboard would be easily remedied.
- macintux 8y ago
  A small boat can stop immediately and recover someone in normal circumstances. Even those who can’t swim should be able to stay above water long enough to be rescued in such a situation.
  - c2h5oh 8y ago
    Even a small sailboat will need to do 3 turns and position itself against the wind when approaching person in water. That takes long enough for someone who can't swim to drown even under perfect weather conditions.
    - macintux 8y ago
      I thought the context was the rowboats used to ferry people to/from ocean-faring ships.
eftychis 8y ago
This really depends on the area of origin. Greek sailors , for instance, were really good swimmers on average (recall Greece comprises several islands with "short" distances; fishing and sponge diving were/are also a side job for sailors and swimming was certainly part of a child's entertainment (a good source here is 19 century and later literature). I am not sure about the argument that falling in the water was a death sentence so that is the reason swimming was unnecessary. Consider that naval life for instance after the 14th century had a high accident rate. In such cases, being an above good swimmer is a highly desirable skill. I think the main reason for the lack of swimming was British and French sailors were "conscripted" in 18-19 centuries [0], and the average citizen at the time did not leave close to shore. At the time not living in close proximity to the sea practically meant, due to travel being a luxury of time (especially during the pre-enlightenment, i.e. feudalism, era), that you never learned to swim as a kid. That places a high-learning curve on an individual who does not have the luxury for such an investment. (Tried to find some credible research and reference; was disappointed with the material; Here is an article on the learning vantage point of an adult https://adequateman.deadspin.com/an-adults-guide-to-learning-to-swim-1718027248 https://adequateman.deadspin.com/an-adults-guide-to-learning...) Thus my point is that Feudalism [1] essentially removed access to the sea to people in mainland/central Europe during pre-adulthood, by land-locking families and later eras (industrialism) perpetuated this trend. Thus swimming became even more of a luxury, which is inline with the existence of a written manuals (certainly not aimed for the average citizen), that seem to focus on basic familiarity with the water. These seem similar to other luxury manuals at the time, such as fencing. Then the average sailor from these regions did not have prior familiarity with water. The time period the article focuses on is a post-Byzantium and post Venician era. I think the article kind of jumps ahead and focuses not on Western Europe but only on North and Central Europe. What was the "swimming state" of Roman era Germania or Britain? How can one draw conclusions about Northern Europe from the lack of access to baths in Rome? The reasoning of the article leaves a lot to be desired there. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism
- baud147258 8y ago
  There's one little problem with your argumentation: most of the population was living either along the shoreline or along a river, which would allow access to large bodies of water. And sailor recruitment was massively done in coastal cities.
robaato 8y ago
Grew up in a fishing village in north east Scotland - many of the trawlermen could't swim for similar reasons.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]