3 ms·

I'm concerned by the fact that this response to blue LEDs, while founded on reasonable sounding theory theory, doesn't seem to have much high quality, real-worl

I'm concerned by the fact that this response to blue LEDs, while founded on reasonable sounding theory theory, doesn't seem to have much high quality, real-world data AFAIK (e.g. insomnia in houses with blue LEDs vs not, comparisons between people using the glasses mentioned vs not, average bedtimes of people correlated with tv usage, any studies looking for causal links in day to day life, etc). Such studies might exist, but I don't think I've seen or heard them referenced, just mentions of how blue light decreases measured meletonin or what not in clinical settings. Mostly I just hear anecdotes from people who have fully bought into the line that this is a serious problem that requires time and money thrown at it about how awesome their life is now that they've gone out of their way to reduce blue light exposure, opening them right up to the placebo effect. I'm double concerned since the answer for this seems to be "buy more stuff" and "blindly assume blue == bad without followup research or verification". This is one of those situations where it's pretty easy for companies to swoop in and offer at-best ineffective and at-worst actively harmful products to solve a problem that might or might not exist.

gniv 8y ago
Especially since one of the recommended solutions is buying $79 glasses which don't seem to be much better than the ones that Home Depot sells for a fraction of the price.
- corv 8y ago
  The cheap ones are just as good.
  - wastedhours 8y ago
    In fact, I've found the cheap ones are better - I got a pair for £20 off of Amazon and found them to work better for me than the £79 pair of Gunnars I had.
st26 8y ago
Given we already know it disrupts melatonin (as well as noctural wildlife), this feels like one of those cases where the burden of proof is on the proponents, before we roll out millions or billions of dollars of LED streetlights around the country. You know who really stands to benefit the most? The companies that get to sell us blue equipment, and then next sell us replacement blue-filtered equipment when we prove night time blue light is a problem. The cities that have already installed 5000K or 6500K (aka "daylight") lamps will be the natural experiments.
- docker_up 8y ago
  You're kind of proving OP's point. You're just spouting off "facts" with no real understanding behind what exactly was said. What exactly did the study say? We've seen more than enough examples on HN about studies whose premise and conclusion have been mistranslated so many times, who's to say this isn't another case of it?
  - st26 8y ago
    What exactly did the study say? Exposure to blue light suppresses melatonin levels. Melatonin is previously understood to regulate sleep. Ergo, while causation between blue light exposure and sleep quality is not proven, we at least have grounds for suspicion. What understanding am I missing? What "facts" are being misused?
    - nkurz 8y ago
      What understanding am I missing? What "facts" are being misused? Jumping in from the sidelines, when you say "Exposure to blue light suppresses melatonin levels", I think the main thing missing is a notion of "dose response". How much blue light causes how much change in melatonin, and how does this affect sleep compared to other factors? Others here in the thread are suggesting that a blue LED indicators on electronics are a travesty. While I hate LED's of any color in my bedroom at night, and tape over indicator lights of all colors, I'm doubtful that this level of exposure affects melatonin levels. Does you think it does? Looking into it now, this seems like a good overview : https://medium.com/swlh/is-blue-light-destroying-your-sleep-no-but-worrying-about-it-is-b0ab1290bfee https://medium.com/swlh/is-blue-light-destroying-your-sleep-... And this is a good look at how melatonin supplements actually work: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th... An interesting point from both of them is that in controlled studies, both melatonin supplements and blue light exposure seem to cause about a 10 minute difference in time to fall asleep. While real, this is a much smaller effect than I would have guessed from most of the popular press coverage.
saidajigumi 8y ago
Probably the easiest starting point to find papers and researchers in this area is the Research page at justgetflux.com: https://justgetflux.com/research.html https://justgetflux.com/research.html Also, just because you personally aren't aware a body of research exists doesn't mean that there isn't a sizable and increasing body of it. "It didn't randomly cross my radar..." isn't a deeply compelling foundation for doubt, especially when a few moments of web searching could have opened the door.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  Yes, of course. And you should start your research into health and sugar here: https://www.kelloggs.com/en_US/nutrition/putting-sugar-in-perspective.html https://www.kelloggs.com/en_US/nutrition/putting-sugar-in-pe... And if you want to learn about the health benefits of magnetic jewelry, go here: https://www.overstock.com/guides/magnetic-bracelets-benefits-explained/ https://www.overstock.com/guides/magnetic-bracelets-benefits... If you want unbiased research, always trust the information provided by those who stand to gain financially from only one side of the issue.
  - uh_what 8y ago
    Flux is free...?
    - wingworks 8y ago
      Yes Flux is free.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      Free for now with the future hope they will make money. So it's free but with the same incentives as any early company that launches for free to grow the user base.
tjoff 8y ago
We do have the trouble of identifying it. Apparently"good" products isn't harmful because they are well made and doesn't emit the dangerous frequencies. Add to that consumers nowadays often have the ability to turn off the "color enhancing" modes that phones and TVs ship with. And further the LED lamps nowadays can also produce the warm coloured light now when we now how to make them cheaply without turning to "crank up the blue until it looks acceptable". It seems to me (please correct me!) that this an old issue. "Unfortunately" LEDs last a long time so there are plenty bad LEDs out there, but as long as you buy reputable brand LEDs it seems this is a passing issue. This time around it seems that manufacturers are well ahead or consumers and now when we are starting to realize it has already been fixed.
gbuk2013 8y ago
High quality data is nice, but at some point one has to get on with one's own life, rather than wait for data. I bought a pair of glasses to filter out blue light on the advice of my dad (who has an eye problem and was recommended them by his doctor) and it has made a real difference - I can now do a full day's coding in front of my LED screen without feeling like my eyes went up against a cheese grater. YMMV
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
This was my takeaway as well. As indicated by the very first comment on the article, the author seems to be completely unfamiliar with the concept of colour temperature, yet still happily pushes LEDs == "blue" light == bad. All in all an interesting but uninformed article (which seems par for the course on Medium these days).

gniv 8y ago

Especially since one of the recommended solutions is buying $79 glasses which don't seem to be much better than the ones that Home Depot sells for a fraction of the price.

corv 8y ago
The cheap ones are just as good.
- wastedhours 8y ago
  In fact, I've found the cheap ones are better - I got a pair for £20 off of Amazon and found them to work better for me than the £79 pair of Gunnars I had.

st26 8y ago

Given we already know it disrupts melatonin (as well as noctural wildlife), this feels like one of those cases where the burden of proof is on the proponents, before we roll out millions or billions of dollars of LED streetlights around the country. You know who really stands to benefit the most? The companies that get to sell us blue equipment, and then next sell us replacement blue-filtered equipment when we prove night time blue light is a problem. The cities that have already installed 5000K or 6500K (aka "daylight") lamps will be the natural experiments.

docker_up 8y ago
You're kind of proving OP's point. You're just spouting off "facts" with no real understanding behind what exactly was said. What exactly did the study say? We've seen more than enough examples on HN about studies whose premise and conclusion have been mistranslated so many times, who's to say this isn't another case of it?
- st26 8y ago
  What exactly did the study say? Exposure to blue light suppresses melatonin levels. Melatonin is previously understood to regulate sleep. Ergo, while causation between blue light exposure and sleep quality is not proven, we at least have grounds for suspicion. What understanding am I missing? What "facts" are being misused?
  - nkurz 8y ago
    What understanding am I missing? What "facts" are being misused? Jumping in from the sidelines, when you say "Exposure to blue light suppresses melatonin levels", I think the main thing missing is a notion of "dose response". How much blue light causes how much change in melatonin, and how does this affect sleep compared to other factors? Others here in the thread are suggesting that a blue LED indicators on electronics are a travesty. While I hate LED's of any color in my bedroom at night, and tape over indicator lights of all colors, I'm doubtful that this level of exposure affects melatonin levels. Does you think it does? Looking into it now, this seems like a good overview : https://medium.com/swlh/is-blue-light-destroying-your-sleep-no-but-worrying-about-it-is-b0ab1290bfee https://medium.com/swlh/is-blue-light-destroying-your-sleep-... And this is a good look at how melatonin supplements actually work: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th... An interesting point from both of them is that in controlled studies, both melatonin supplements and blue light exposure seem to cause about a 10 minute difference in time to fall asleep. While real, this is a much smaller effect than I would have guessed from most of the popular press coverage.

saidajigumi 8y ago

Probably the easiest starting point to find papers and researchers in this area is the Research page at justgetflux.com: https://justgetflux.com/research.html https://justgetflux.com/research.html Also, just because you personally aren't aware a body of research exists doesn't mean that there isn't a sizable and increasing body of it. "It didn't randomly cross my radar..." isn't a deeply compelling foundation for doubt, especially when a few moments of web searching could have opened the door.

jjeaff 8y ago
Yes, of course. And you should start your research into health and sugar here: https://www.kelloggs.com/en_US/nutrition/putting-sugar-in-perspective.html https://www.kelloggs.com/en_US/nutrition/putting-sugar-in-pe... And if you want to learn about the health benefits of magnetic jewelry, go here: https://www.overstock.com/guides/magnetic-bracelets-benefits-explained/ https://www.overstock.com/guides/magnetic-bracelets-benefits... If you want unbiased research, always trust the information provided by those who stand to gain financially from only one side of the issue.
- uh_what 8y ago
  Flux is free...?
  - wingworks 8y ago
    Yes Flux is free.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    Free for now with the future hope they will make money. So it's free but with the same incentives as any early company that launches for free to grow the user base.

tjoff 8y ago

We do have the trouble of identifying it. Apparently"good" products isn't harmful because they are well made and doesn't emit the dangerous frequencies. Add to that consumers nowadays often have the ability to turn off the "color enhancing" modes that phones and TVs ship with. And further the LED lamps nowadays can also produce the warm coloured light now when we now how to make them cheaply without turning to "crank up the blue until it looks acceptable". It seems to me (please correct me!) that this an old issue. "Unfortunately" LEDs last a long time so there are plenty bad LEDs out there, but as long as you buy reputable brand LEDs it seems this is a passing issue. This time around it seems that manufacturers are well ahead or consumers and now when we are starting to realize it has already been fixed.

gbuk2013 8y ago

High quality data is nice, but at some point one has to get on with one's own life, rather than wait for data. I bought a pair of glasses to filter out blue light on the advice of my dad (who has an eye problem and was recommended them by his doctor) and it has made a real difference - I can now do a full day's coding in front of my LED screen without feeling like my eyes went up against a cheese grater. YMMV

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago

This was my takeaway as well. As indicated by the very first comment on the article, the author seems to be completely unfamiliar with the concept of colour temperature, yet still happily pushes LEDs == "blue" light == bad. All in all an interesting but uninformed article (which seems par for the course on Medium these days).