5 ms·

> You drove to the site knowing it would all be gone and a strong warning not to turn around if you were near the gate because you just remembered you had your

> You drove to the site knowing it would all be gone and a strong warning not to turn around if you were near the gate because you just remembered you had your phone in your rental car. Forgive my denseness (maybe it's because I just woke up), but I'm having a hard time figuring this bit out. If you're near the base, as in not-quite-on the property, you could be anyone, with any arbitrary selection of interesting equipment that needs to drive up to the base then away again. Is it timing - as in, driving away and back will take far too long and make you late? > We went through a lot of equipment. On your own dime? :/ I would hope a base like this provides all contractors a reasonable "security enforcement viability" fund, or something like that :) > I don't even know what the faculty looks like Wait. What gate were you referring to before, then? Some point you were transported from, but which wasn't the actual location? Hm, perhaps this explains the "don't turn around" bit. -- Unfortunately I can't find it right now, but I remember the (possibly-apocryphal?) story of the random server, deep in a secure facility, that was part of a botnet. The person who found it didn't think it looked particularly like a honeypot; it was an actual database or equivalent sort of machine. The person informed various higher-ups, but despite the report being acknowledged nothing was ever done to fix it.

1986 8y ago
I believe the rationale is that you're observed as you approach a military base - if you get close and then suddenly turn around it looks suspicious; then they'll have to go track you down, etc
- pferde 8y ago
  Sounds like a great way to make the army bleed resources.
  - brazzledazzle 8y ago
    Presumably these special sites are on US soil. If repeatedly doing that or conspiring to do so with others isn’t in itself illegal there’s probably something on the books they could throw at you.
    - pferde 8y ago
      Conspiring to repeatedly drive around certain public roads? C'mon...
      - Turing_Machine 8y ago
        You are generally on military land for quite some distance before you get to the actual gate -- at least that's been the case for every facility I've visited. Usually there's a large sign "Foo Air Force Base" (or whatever) by the civilian road, then you turn off and drive on a military road for half a mile or more (sometimes much more), then you come to the gate with the guards. But you've still been on military land, and subject to military rules and laws, from the instant you enter their property. Edit: just checked. The guardhouses for two of the gates at a local facility are respectively about 800/1,000 feet away from the public road, and about 600/800 feet inside the perimeter fence (the one with signs reading "patrolled by dogs", "deadly force authorized", etc.).
      - duxup 8y ago
        You're very much not on public roads / property by the time you get to the gate, at least at the facility I went to.
      - jpindar 8y ago
        There are towns that have "no cruising" laws making it illegal to repeatedly drive around a certain area. And under certain circumstances repeatedly driving past someone's house could be harassment or stalking.
        SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
        Ah, glorious freedom
  - slipperymate 8y ago
    It would also bleed your own, possibly at the same or faster rate.
  - duxup 8y ago
    Dudes are at the gate are there regardless, them hopping in a vehicle to have a chat with you probabbly costs very little... if not nothing at all. If the government wants to do something legally beyond that, they probabbly would feel it is worth it to discourage such behavior.
- duxup 8y ago
  Yeah I assumed that was the case. Also I got the impression that even if they checked you at the gate and you didn't account for something in your car or on you and they found something you shouldn't have, they could deny you entry right there and you weren't getting back in anytime soon. Someone panicking and driving away might set off some dude's suspicions and you weren't going to fix things... and it took a while to schedule everything. It was as much about protocol and just making good choices / customer service (don't scare your customer) as anything else.
Smilliam 8y ago
The facility was likely at the end of a long road with nothing else on it. It would be seen as suspicious behavior to drive towards it and then turn around without making contact at the gate, to say nothing of scheduling delays. No idea on equipment costs; it's likely that OPs company had an overhead disbursement for mistakes. The gate itself was probably a good ways away from the actual facility. If they weren't driven all the way from hotel to site by a driver, then they almost certainly stopped and parked at the gate and were driven the rest of the way under escort and blindfold.
derefr 8y ago
A random person going near the gate is, potentially, a spy who has used their equipment to capture data for SIGINT (think "war-driving.") Once they've come close enough to be in your emissions bubble—let alone close enough to photograph your site—you can't let their equipment leave intact. (And, even if someone's equipment doesn't look like the kind of thing that would capture signals, the thoroughness required to prove that a piece of equipment is benign, is too high a cost to pay for every random passer-by. You don't want a security strategy that allows guerillas to DoS your guards by just constantly bringing benign equipment near them.) This response assumes, though, that the equipment isn't e.g. connected to a satellite uplink and streaming the data out in real-time. (These sites aren't in reach of any cell towers, but satellite phones will still work.) I'm not sure what answer modern military counterintelligence has for that particular threat.
- closeparen 8y ago
  Military bases are frequently in populated areas; it would be wildly impractical to harass everyone who drives by the perimeter. Half the SCIF spec (which is public!) is about containing sensitive emissions inside the SCIF. And if you did have concerns about the airwaves around the base, why wouldn’t you just draw a bigger perimeter, rather than risk having sensitive areas outside the fence?
  - mcguire 8y ago
    This. I work on Redstone Arsenal. I don't work with anything especially secured, but I've met people who do. They work inside a SCIF; no network, no personal electronics in the SCIF, but there's no particular requirements outside.
    - mobilemidget 8y ago
      This too :-) not special about you. But people worry about information leaks by watches and fitbits, yet half the commenters here easily share where or what they have worked on in a public accessible site
  - 8y ago
duxup 8y ago
It was a large facility... I think. There was much to see at the gate I went to, other than a gate and considering I knew how things were going to go (lots of making sure you knew the rules) I didn't want to startle anyone by looking around too much (for all I know there were others... who knows...). I got the feeling the whole driving away thing was more about that if anyone felt things were suspicious, you weren't getting in, and just wasted everyone's time. Protocol was a big deal. In theory some random joe could somehow drive to this gate, but I'm not sure how, it wasn't exactly on the way to anywhere. I was also told they would know you were coming long before you got there and not just because of the schedule (not sure if that was true, but someone told me that) ;) It is all curious to talk about now but when you're alone and serious business guys are around you with guns you just behave as innocuous as possible. As for equipment I belive the customer paid for each visit, equipment included. Everyone knew the rules outright so they paid a ton for everything. Beyond just one visit sending hardware to sites for repairs and never getting anything back was SOP even for some security minded private companies, so that wasn't all that unusual. Laptops taken... was quite unusual as at the time laptops were quite expensive.
- exikyut 8y ago
  Thanks for replying! > In theory some random joe could somehow drive to this gate, but I'm not sure how, it wasn't exactly on the way to anywhere. Ah, that explains a lot. > As for equipment I belive the customer paid for each visit, equipment included. Everyone knew the rules outright so they paid a ton for everything. Wow. Part of me says that's crazy, the other part wants to know where to sign up, since this sounds like it paid well :D (Of course I'm inordinately curious what equipment was being maintained, but we'll just drop that one on the floor since it's probably quite boring)

1986 8y ago

I believe the rationale is that you're observed as you approach a military base - if you get close and then suddenly turn around it looks suspicious; then they'll have to go track you down, etc

pferde 8y ago
Sounds like a great way to make the army bleed resources.
- brazzledazzle 8y ago
  Presumably these special sites are on US soil. If repeatedly doing that or conspiring to do so with others isn’t in itself illegal there’s probably something on the books they could throw at you.
  - pferde 8y ago
    Conspiring to repeatedly drive around certain public roads? C'mon...
    - Turing_Machine 8y ago
      You are generally on military land for quite some distance before you get to the actual gate -- at least that's been the case for every facility I've visited. Usually there's a large sign "Foo Air Force Base" (or whatever) by the civilian road, then you turn off and drive on a military road for half a mile or more (sometimes much more), then you come to the gate with the guards. But you've still been on military land, and subject to military rules and laws, from the instant you enter their property. Edit: just checked. The guardhouses for two of the gates at a local facility are respectively about 800/1,000 feet away from the public road, and about 600/800 feet inside the perimeter fence (the one with signs reading "patrolled by dogs", "deadly force authorized", etc.).
    - duxup 8y ago
      You're very much not on public roads / property by the time you get to the gate, at least at the facility I went to.
    - jpindar 8y ago
      There are towns that have "no cruising" laws making it illegal to repeatedly drive around a certain area. And under certain circumstances repeatedly driving past someone's house could be harassment or stalking.
      - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
        Ah, glorious freedom
- slipperymate 8y ago
  It would also bleed your own, possibly at the same or faster rate.
- duxup 8y ago
  Dudes are at the gate are there regardless, them hopping in a vehicle to have a chat with you probabbly costs very little... if not nothing at all. If the government wants to do something legally beyond that, they probabbly would feel it is worth it to discourage such behavior.
duxup 8y ago
Yeah I assumed that was the case. Also I got the impression that even if they checked you at the gate and you didn't account for something in your car or on you and they found something you shouldn't have, they could deny you entry right there and you weren't getting back in anytime soon. Someone panicking and driving away might set off some dude's suspicions and you weren't going to fix things... and it took a while to schedule everything. It was as much about protocol and just making good choices / customer service (don't scare your customer) as anything else.

Smilliam 8y ago

The facility was likely at the end of a long road with nothing else on it. It would be seen as suspicious behavior to drive towards it and then turn around without making contact at the gate, to say nothing of scheduling delays. No idea on equipment costs; it's likely that OPs company had an overhead disbursement for mistakes. The gate itself was probably a good ways away from the actual facility. If they weren't driven all the way from hotel to site by a driver, then they almost certainly stopped and parked at the gate and were driven the rest of the way under escort and blindfold.

derefr 8y ago

A random person going near the gate is, potentially, a spy who has used their equipment to capture data for SIGINT (think "war-driving.") Once they've come close enough to be in your emissions bubble—let alone close enough to photograph your site—you can't let their equipment leave intact. (And, even if someone's equipment doesn't look like the kind of thing that would capture signals, the thoroughness required to prove that a piece of equipment is benign, is too high a cost to pay for every random passer-by. You don't want a security strategy that allows guerillas to DoS your guards by just constantly bringing benign equipment near them.) This response assumes, though, that the equipment isn't e.g. connected to a satellite uplink and streaming the data out in real-time. (These sites aren't in reach of any cell towers, but satellite phones will still work.) I'm not sure what answer modern military counterintelligence has for that particular threat.

closeparen 8y ago
Military bases are frequently in populated areas; it would be wildly impractical to harass everyone who drives by the perimeter. Half the SCIF spec (which is public!) is about containing sensitive emissions inside the SCIF. And if you did have concerns about the airwaves around the base, why wouldn’t you just draw a bigger perimeter, rather than risk having sensitive areas outside the fence?
- mcguire 8y ago
  This. I work on Redstone Arsenal. I don't work with anything especially secured, but I've met people who do. They work inside a SCIF; no network, no personal electronics in the SCIF, but there's no particular requirements outside.
  - mobilemidget 8y ago
    This too :-) not special about you. But people worry about information leaks by watches and fitbits, yet half the commenters here easily share where or what they have worked on in a public accessible site
- 8y ago

duxup 8y ago

It was a large facility... I think. There was much to see at the gate I went to, other than a gate and considering I knew how things were going to go (lots of making sure you knew the rules) I didn't want to startle anyone by looking around too much (for all I know there were others... who knows...). I got the feeling the whole driving away thing was more about that if anyone felt things were suspicious, you weren't getting in, and just wasted everyone's time. Protocol was a big deal. In theory some random joe could somehow drive to this gate, but I'm not sure how, it wasn't exactly on the way to anywhere. I was also told they would know you were coming long before you got there and not just because of the schedule (not sure if that was true, but someone told me that) ;) It is all curious to talk about now but when you're alone and serious business guys are around you with guns you just behave as innocuous as possible. As for equipment I belive the customer paid for each visit, equipment included. Everyone knew the rules outright so they paid a ton for everything. Beyond just one visit sending hardware to sites for repairs and never getting anything back was SOP even for some security minded private companies, so that wasn't all that unusual. Laptops taken... was quite unusual as at the time laptops were quite expensive.

exikyut 8y ago
Thanks for replying! > In theory some random joe could somehow drive to this gate, but I'm not sure how, it wasn't exactly on the way to anywhere. Ah, that explains a lot. > As for equipment I belive the customer paid for each visit, equipment included. Everyone knew the rules outright so they paid a ton for everything. Wow. Part of me says that's crazy, the other part wants to know where to sign up, since this sounds like it paid well :D (Of course I'm inordinately curious what equipment was being maintained, but we'll just drop that one on the floor since it's probably quite boring)