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Did anyone see these privacy changes? https://developer.android.com/about/versions/p/android-9.0-changes-all#privacy-changes-all https://developer.android.com/

Did anyone see these privacy changes? https://developer.android.com/about/versions/p/android-9.0-changes-all#privacy-changes-all https://developer.android.com/about/versions/p/android-9.0-c... * Limited access to sensors in background * Restricted access to call logs * Restricted access to phone numbers * Restricted access to Wi-Fi location and connection information * Information removed from Wi-Fi service methods * Telephony information now relies on device location setting

wyldfire 8y ago
These are awesome. Android is slowly catching up with iOS in this regard.
- ptx 8y ago
  They are both slowly catching up to Java ME[1] where all of this worked perfectly well, except for the silly decision to disable the "always allow" option for non-trusted apps. If they had just let the users (rather than Verisign) decide for themselves which apps they trusted, so that every app wouldn't have to pop up i confirmation dialog every time it wanted a network connection, I would be much happier with what we had then than with Android's model. [1] https://www.wosign.com/support/resources/MIDP_2_0_Tutorial_On_Signed_MIDlets_v1_1_en.pdf https://www.wosign.com/support/resources/MIDP_2_0_Tutorial_O...
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    And Symbian. :)
- Paraesthetic 8y ago
  They are slowly catching the year dead Windows Phone
confounded 8y ago
Great stuff. However, while I'm happy that they're limiting third-party access to this data, given Google's business model, I still wouldn't trust them with it.
- DennisAleynikov 8y ago
  You're right Google no longer has the trust it used to enjoy. So many apps have been uploading entire call logs and it's really absurd this was so easiy accessible to all apps.
  - creatornator 8y ago
    Android may have always been available at no cost, but it was never free. Always assume if you are given a service gratis, that _you_ are the product being sold. This doesn't just apply to Android, but to gmail, Drive, Docs, etc.
    - DennisAleynikov 8y ago
      A product only useful at the Billion User data points level. I am 100% fine participating in what's essentially the training data for all future AI products coming out of Google. It feels like a happy family of devices all working together for a more scientific future.
      - knuththetruth 8y ago
        >It feels like a happy family of devices all working together for a more scientific future. With this philosophy, I’d suggest you’d avoid paying attention to the trajectory of Chinese society, perhaps even more so now that Google plans to get in bed with the CCP’s censorship and dissident quashing regime...
        Latteland 8y ago
        I believe they claim they aren't really doing that. It could be the great negative attention forced them to say that wasn't their actual plan.
        knuththetruth 8y ago
        They said the same thing about their participation in the drone program, until an internal revolt forced them to reveal their true hand (they were actually doing it and hoping to do more of it), and subsequent internal backlash put a stop to it altogether. https://jacobinmag.com/2018/06/google-project-maven-military-tech-workers https://jacobinmag.com/2018/06/google-project-maven-military... I too hope that Googlers block what their execs are planning to do in China, but we're not there yet, and it should give one pause that their leadership are onboard with doing this in the first place.
guelo 8y ago
The "privacy" and "security" features also mean a less powerful computer. Which is probably the right trade-off for most users but a pain in the ass for more niche use cases.
- izacus 8y ago
  Most of that data is still available, just gated behind permissions that require explicit consent from user now.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I hope that the permissions are better to understand and control than the current ones. Right now they seem to be designed to give the appearance of giving users control but the implementation is pretty bad and user unfriendly.
    - Latteland 8y ago
      And the other problem is you install an app all the time and the permissions aren't clearly laid out. I want: 1. tell me I install an app that wants "some list of permissions". 2. let me disable this permission for all apps installed now and in the future.
      - izacus 8y ago
        Anything targeting API level 23 has all permissions denied by default (and targeting higher level is mandatory for all new apps right now).
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        I would also like to give permissions only for a limited time and see a log how the permissions are being used in detail.
      - on_and_off 8y ago
        1) it is not really realistic in practice: - Permissions are requested incrementally at runtime. For large apps, a LOT of these permissions depend on corner cases BUT you still declare all the permissions you might ask for. So maybe I will declare that I might ask to see the content of your screen .. because there is an help menu where I take a video of your screen to send to support after asking you for the permission. Same for camera .. we might use Google Pay for most cases, but in one of the countries where we have the app, a local player has a very popular solution that scans your credit card. So we declare that we might need Camera because of this sdk. Etc. This is one of the reasons why the previous model where you asked the permissions at install time did not work very well in practice.
anonytrary 8y ago
This is the top comment I came here for. I really hope there is a way to turn off all the "machine learning stuff" because I would rather not sacrifice any of my personal data so that Google can better predict how to "optimize my phone experience". My human brain learns the random quirks of an OS in a matter of days, I don't need the OS brain trying to learn how I use it, as it would be confusing for both of us. I just wish there was a global "NO NO and NO!" override button for any kind of "help make your service better by using your personal information" feature. Just recently, I discovered that www.google.com was also accessing my Chrome browser's location, and I can not recall when I said "yes" to any such location prompt. It's a bit sad -- I think of these features as being intentionally obfuscated similarly to how Facebook intentionally obfuscates their "account deletion" mechanism. I'm afraid the majority of people just don't care about these needlessly nosy "smart" systems, and I'm probably going to suffer from it as someone in the privacy-niche.
- swebs 8y ago
  > I discovered that www.google.com was also accessing my Chrome browser's location, and I can not recall when I said "yes" to any such location prompt This is the worst when traveling through Europe. Cross a border and suddenly all Google services are in a language you don't speak.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    I really hate that and I do speak quite a few. It is not only the UI language that changes, the search results do as well. Suddenly something that was easy to find becomes a mess of local results with similar names or machine translated, even though I used the original language name.
    - philcrump 8y ago
      Note that this is often done based on your IP address if you've not opted-in. It's often a quirk when using CCC (Chaos Computer Club) IP addresses at events in other countries; you'll be looking at google.de for the first couple of days until google correlates enough location data from people that have opted-in to correct the IP location. On the plus side it means that a personal VPN with no opted-in devices will give you your home-region services (ymmv).
Paraesthetic 8y ago
Thats great and all, but really isn't Google the problem for having that information. I trust scammy looking Chinese apps over Google.
amluto 8y ago
> Limited access to sensors in background I'm amazed this took so long. There have been papers coming out for years demonstrating how to extract all kinds of sensitive information from the vibration sensor.

wyldfire 8y ago

These are awesome. Android is slowly catching up with iOS in this regard.

ptx 8y ago
They are both slowly catching up to Java ME[1] where all of this worked perfectly well, except for the silly decision to disable the "always allow" option for non-trusted apps. If they had just let the users (rather than Verisign) decide for themselves which apps they trusted, so that every app wouldn't have to pop up i confirmation dialog every time it wanted a network connection, I would be much happier with what we had then than with Android's model. [1] https://www.wosign.com/support/resources/MIDP_2_0_Tutorial_On_Signed_MIDlets_v1_1_en.pdf https://www.wosign.com/support/resources/MIDP_2_0_Tutorial_O...
- pjmlp 8y ago
  And Symbian. :)
Paraesthetic 8y ago
They are slowly catching the year dead Windows Phone

confounded 8y ago

Great stuff. However, while I'm happy that they're limiting third-party access to this data, given Google's business model, I still wouldn't trust them with it.

DennisAleynikov 8y ago
You're right Google no longer has the trust it used to enjoy. So many apps have been uploading entire call logs and it's really absurd this was so easiy accessible to all apps.
- creatornator 8y ago
  Android may have always been available at no cost, but it was never free. Always assume if you are given a service gratis, that _you_ are the product being sold. This doesn't just apply to Android, but to gmail, Drive, Docs, etc.
  - DennisAleynikov 8y ago
    A product only useful at the Billion User data points level. I am 100% fine participating in what's essentially the training data for all future AI products coming out of Google. It feels like a happy family of devices all working together for a more scientific future.
    - knuththetruth 8y ago
      >It feels like a happy family of devices all working together for a more scientific future. With this philosophy, I’d suggest you’d avoid paying attention to the trajectory of Chinese society, perhaps even more so now that Google plans to get in bed with the CCP’s censorship and dissident quashing regime...
      - Latteland 8y ago
        I believe they claim they aren't really doing that. It could be the great negative attention forced them to say that wasn't their actual plan.
        knuththetruth 8y ago
        They said the same thing about their participation in the drone program, until an internal revolt forced them to reveal their true hand (they were actually doing it and hoping to do more of it), and subsequent internal backlash put a stop to it altogether. https://jacobinmag.com/2018/06/google-project-maven-military-tech-workers https://jacobinmag.com/2018/06/google-project-maven-military... I too hope that Googlers block what their execs are planning to do in China, but we're not there yet, and it should give one pause that their leadership are onboard with doing this in the first place.

guelo 8y ago

The "privacy" and "security" features also mean a less powerful computer. Which is probably the right trade-off for most users but a pain in the ass for more niche use cases.

izacus 8y ago
Most of that data is still available, just gated behind permissions that require explicit consent from user now.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I hope that the permissions are better to understand and control than the current ones. Right now they seem to be designed to give the appearance of giving users control but the implementation is pretty bad and user unfriendly.
  - Latteland 8y ago
    And the other problem is you install an app all the time and the permissions aren't clearly laid out. I want: 1. tell me I install an app that wants "some list of permissions". 2. let me disable this permission for all apps installed now and in the future.
    - izacus 8y ago
      Anything targeting API level 23 has all permissions denied by default (and targeting higher level is mandatory for all new apps right now).
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      I would also like to give permissions only for a limited time and see a log how the permissions are being used in detail.
    - on_and_off 8y ago
      1) it is not really realistic in practice: - Permissions are requested incrementally at runtime. For large apps, a LOT of these permissions depend on corner cases BUT you still declare all the permissions you might ask for. So maybe I will declare that I might ask to see the content of your screen .. because there is an help menu where I take a video of your screen to send to support after asking you for the permission. Same for camera .. we might use Google Pay for most cases, but in one of the countries where we have the app, a local player has a very popular solution that scans your credit card. So we declare that we might need Camera because of this sdk. Etc. This is one of the reasons why the previous model where you asked the permissions at install time did not work very well in practice.

anonytrary 8y ago

This is the top comment I came here for. I really hope there is a way to turn off all the "machine learning stuff" because I would rather not sacrifice any of my personal data so that Google can better predict how to "optimize my phone experience". My human brain learns the random quirks of an OS in a matter of days, I don't need the OS brain trying to learn how I use it, as it would be confusing for both of us. I just wish there was a global "NO NO and NO!" override button for any kind of "help make your service better by using your personal information" feature. Just recently, I discovered that www.google.com was also accessing my Chrome browser's location, and I can not recall when I said "yes" to any such location prompt. It's a bit sad -- I think of these features as being intentionally obfuscated similarly to how Facebook intentionally obfuscates their "account deletion" mechanism. I'm afraid the majority of people just don't care about these needlessly nosy "smart" systems, and I'm probably going to suffer from it as someone in the privacy-niche.

swebs 8y ago
> I discovered that www.google.com was also accessing my Chrome browser's location, and I can not recall when I said "yes" to any such location prompt This is the worst when traveling through Europe. Cross a border and suddenly all Google services are in a language you don't speak.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  I really hate that and I do speak quite a few. It is not only the UI language that changes, the search results do as well. Suddenly something that was easy to find becomes a mess of local results with similar names or machine translated, even though I used the original language name.
  - philcrump 8y ago
    Note that this is often done based on your IP address if you've not opted-in. It's often a quirk when using CCC (Chaos Computer Club) IP addresses at events in other countries; you'll be looking at google.de for the first couple of days until google correlates enough location data from people that have opted-in to correct the IP location. On the plus side it means that a personal VPN with no opted-in devices will give you your home-region services (ymmv).

Paraesthetic 8y ago

Thats great and all, but really isn't Google the problem for having that information. I trust scammy looking Chinese apps over Google.

amluto 8y ago

> Limited access to sensors in background I'm amazed this took so long. There have been papers coming out for years demonstrating how to extract all kinds of sensitive information from the vibration sensor.