5 ms·

The dichotomy you present is false. Only in the absolutely insane US system one needs to burn through savings to get paleative care. Health, just like fire fig

by ddalex 8y ago

The dichotomy you present is false. Only in the absolutely insane US system one needs to burn through savings to get paleative care. Health, just like fire fighting, should not be a for-profit business.

syshum 8y ago
Why shouldnt fire fighting be for-profit Why do you believe non-profit means it has to be provided by government? Why do you believe profit is bad?
- artimaeis 8y ago
  > Why shouldnt fire fighting be for-profit Because fires pose an undue risk to entire regions, not individuals. Because the pricing mechanism is excessively unfair to individuals. Because no one's life should be at risk because they don't have access to financial resources. Individuals should be (and are, generally) free to start for-profit fire fighting businesses, but these should not seek to displace existing infrastructure. > Why do you believe non-profit means it has to be provided by government? That wasn't said or implied in the parent post, but the government _is_ our collective resource. By the people, for the people. It is we, the people, whose lives and property are put in danger by fires. The most effective way of grouping people's interest collectively in history has been through governance. Non-profit fire fighting may be viable, but it's better that we collectively work to keep our collection safe. > Why do you believe profit is bad? It depends entirely on the context. When people's lives are at stake profits incentivize cruel and unusual behavior from those incentivized to reap the reward.
- rrivers 8y ago
  Quite some red-herrings in this line of questioning. He never made reference to "profit is bad." Saying that medical care for our fellow humans should not be for-profit implies that the individual values human life over our current constructed system of exchange. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S. who would be bankrupted instantly if they were to suffer a significant accident that required prolonged medical attention. People that would otherwise continue to live productive and meaningful lives who would be regulated to abject poverty, destroying their potential. The argument for socialized healthcare is simple; we have the resources to do it successfully and it costs less[1][2] and is more efficient than our current model. The only thing propping up our system is the millions of dollars of lobbying money from the insurance firms. -- [1] http://www.pnhp.org/news/2014/november/implementing-a-universal-healthcare-system-costs-less-provides-better-care http://www.pnhp.org/news/2014/november/implementing-a-univer... [2]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-30/study-medicare-for-all-bill-estimated-at-32-6-trillion https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-30/study-med...
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. They never lead anywhere new. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
prostoalex 8y ago
> Health, just like fire fighting, should not be a for-profit business. US has a reasonable share of non-profit hospitals and other medical institutions, but the prices are not drastically different. Random googling suggests that average doctor salary in Los Angeles is in the range $195,335–$254,517. Across the pond average doctor salary in Ireland is quoted at €48,020. For context, a registered nurse in California is making on average $94,120. European or Asian medical professionals go to medical or nursing school with the goals of joining the middle class. In the US "graduated med school" is synonymous with raking in cash.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  "US has a reasonable share of non-profit hospitals and other medical institutions, but the prices are not drastically different" Your mistake is to think that nonprofit means that they don't make profit. They still pay a ton of money to their administrators and doctors. And the rest of the profit goes into fancy buildings.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> Only in the absolutely insane US system one needs to burn through savings to get paleative care End-of-life care is intensive, chronic, risky and generally involves cutting-edge techniques (since yesterday's death sentence is today's extendable life). This is fundamental to the cost of care. As a result, end-of-life costs are similar across the board [1]. If there is a unique American angle to this, it's doctors afraid of being sued spending too much on dying Americans. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/cjarlotta/2016/01/19/end-of-life-care-costs-in-us-comparable-to-europe-and-canada/#3cd68c11ada3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/cjarlotta/2016/01/19/end-of-lif...
pixl97 8y ago
TANSTAAFL Fire fighting still cost money. non profit medical still costs money. And yes, there is only so much medical care to go around.

by ddalex 8y ago

syshum 8y ago

Why shouldnt fire fighting be for-profit Why do you believe non-profit means it has to be provided by government? Why do you believe profit is bad?

artimaeis 8y ago
> Why shouldnt fire fighting be for-profit Because fires pose an undue risk to entire regions, not individuals. Because the pricing mechanism is excessively unfair to individuals. Because no one's life should be at risk because they don't have access to financial resources. Individuals should be (and are, generally) free to start for-profit fire fighting businesses, but these should not seek to displace existing infrastructure. > Why do you believe non-profit means it has to be provided by government? That wasn't said or implied in the parent post, but the government _is_ our collective resource. By the people, for the people. It is we, the people, whose lives and property are put in danger by fires. The most effective way of grouping people's interest collectively in history has been through governance. Non-profit fire fighting may be viable, but it's better that we collectively work to keep our collection safe. > Why do you believe profit is bad? It depends entirely on the context. When people's lives are at stake profits incentivize cruel and unusual behavior from those incentivized to reap the reward.
rrivers 8y ago
Quite some red-herrings in this line of questioning. He never made reference to "profit is bad." Saying that medical care for our fellow humans should not be for-profit implies that the individual values human life over our current constructed system of exchange. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S. who would be bankrupted instantly if they were to suffer a significant accident that required prolonged medical attention. People that would otherwise continue to live productive and meaningful lives who would be regulated to abject poverty, destroying their potential. The argument for socialized healthcare is simple; we have the resources to do it successfully and it costs less[1][2] and is more efficient than our current model. The only thing propping up our system is the millions of dollars of lobbying money from the insurance firms. -- [1] http://www.pnhp.org/news/2014/november/implementing-a-universal-healthcare-system-costs-less-provides-better-care http://www.pnhp.org/news/2014/november/implementing-a-univer... [2]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-30/study-medicare-for-all-bill-estimated-at-32-6-trillion https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-30/study-med...
dang 8y ago
Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. They never lead anywhere new. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

prostoalex 8y ago

> Health, just like fire fighting, should not be a for-profit business. US has a reasonable share of non-profit hospitals and other medical institutions, but the prices are not drastically different. Random googling suggests that average doctor salary in Los Angeles is in the range $195,335–$254,517. Across the pond average doctor salary in Ireland is quoted at €48,020. For context, a registered nurse in California is making on average $94,120. European or Asian medical professionals go to medical or nursing school with the goals of joining the middle class. In the US "graduated med school" is synonymous with raking in cash.

maxxxxx 8y ago
"US has a reasonable share of non-profit hospitals and other medical institutions, but the prices are not drastically different" Your mistake is to think that nonprofit means that they don't make profit. They still pay a ton of money to their administrators and doctors. And the rest of the profit goes into fancy buildings.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> Only in the absolutely insane US system one needs to burn through savings to get paleative care End-of-life care is intensive, chronic, risky and generally involves cutting-edge techniques (since yesterday's death sentence is today's extendable life). This is fundamental to the cost of care. As a result, end-of-life costs are similar across the board [1]. If there is a unique American angle to this, it's doctors afraid of being sued spending too much on dying Americans. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/cjarlotta/2016/01/19/end-of-life-care-costs-in-us-comparable-to-europe-and-canada/#3cd68c11ada3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/cjarlotta/2016/01/19/end-of-lif...

pixl97 8y ago

TANSTAAFL Fire fighting still cost money. non profit medical still costs money. And yes, there is only so much medical care to go around.