4 ms·

TLDR: High wages incentivize automation (ie. increased productivity) Another argument in favor of higher wages. But high wages aren't happening on their own, a

TLDR: High wages incentivize automation (ie. increased productivity) Another argument in favor of higher wages. But high wages aren't happening on their own, and thus we may need a policy like UBI (universal basic income) to increase wages by enabling more people to drop out of the labor force for unenjoyable jobs.

sheepmullet 8y ago
All the west needs to do to get higher wages is significantly restrict immigration. Most western countries are at sub-replacement fertility. Then supply and demand will do its thing.
- pjc50 8y ago
  Immigration is significantly restricted; just take a look at the procedural requirements for yourself.
  - Retric 8y ago
    I think it’s a little more complicated. Many countries discourage illegal immigration on the surface while having plenty of loopholes that encourage it. Frankly many people want a cheap labor force and their are plenty of people from other nations willing to supply it.
  - JetSetWilly 8y ago
    Except you don't look at regulations to judge whether immigration is high. You look at the numbers for actual inflows of people and compare to the past. Certainly for eg. the UK the numbers for recent years are sky high compared to decades ago, so to claim that "immigration is restricted look at the requirements" is to ignore empirical reality.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      The original post I was replying to said "significantly restrict immigration". As we are finding out, to reduce immigration absolute numbers requires increasingly inhumane, bureaucratic, arbitrary and impractical processes. > decades ago Which decade did you have in mind?
      - JetSetWilly 8y ago
        Choose any decade you want. UK immigration levels are at all-time highs, even over a mere decade ago, never mind before that. > As we are finding out, to reduce immigration absolute numbers requires increasingly inhumane, bureaucratic, arbitrary and impractical processes. It isn't inhumane to say "no" to economic migrants, and it doesn't have to be bureaucratic either.
      - sheepmullet 8y ago
        > As we are finding out, to reduce immigration absolute numbers requires increasingly inhumane, bureaucratic, arbitrary and impractical processes. Why does it require any of those things? Immigration to the UK in 1995 was ~228,000 people. In 2017 it was ~550,000 people. Immigration to the UK in 1995 was no more inhumane, bureaucratic, or impractical than it was last year. It would be incredibly easy and practical to go back to 1995 levels. An order of magnitude easier than implementing UBI.
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
In a country with a constrained housing supply (like the UK) wouldn't any basic income just end up in the pockets of landlords?
- tedeh 8y ago
  I don't know if that is so, but as a solution "basic housing" may be required too then?
  - daliusd 8y ago
    Vonnegut's Player Piano is about people living from basic housing and basic income ;-)
  - pjc50 8y ago
    We could call it "council housing". We could even observe that, left to the free market, housebuilding can become unacceptably cramped and poor quality, and decide to raise the minimum standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Morris_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Morris_Committee
- ajuc 8y ago
  > constrained housing supply So make it unconstrained?
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    There doesn't seem to be the political will to do what is necessary. House building is up but its nowhere near where it needs to be to remove that constraint.
    - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
      That sounds like a needed social movement waiting to happen.
- Firadeoclus 8y ago
mkirklions 8y ago
>enabling more people to drop out of the labor force for unenjoyable jobs. >unenjoyable jobs What an odd concept. Only in the last few decades have people even been taught the concept to pick a job you 'enjoy'. I'm wondering if every human had the option to get UBI or work, what they would choose. In a heart beat I'd trade my 9-5 that pays over 6 figures to never have to work again. I think its also worth mentioning that humans are doing so well, that maybe UBI isnt needed. Homes/food/transportation etc... are all the cheapest in human history. Ive already noticed that I could potentially retire in the next few years.
- avgDev 8y ago
  You are wrong. Homes are not the cheapest in the human history. As we are close to the 2007 housing bubble home prices. Here's a source with home price to income ratio. http://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/ http://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-incom... US healthcare cost is exploding. Food prices are actually going up. Transportation is a tough one, as it may include different modes of transportation, some did get cheaper.
  - mkirklions 8y ago
    My expertise is food prices, google Calories Per Dollar. Thats my website. If you are going to claim food prices have gone up, you are talking about government caused inflation. I find the home situation the easiest to find a counterpoint, so we will only argue about definitions. Per sq footage, its the cheapest. If you try hard enough, you can find a way to be correct. Change the metric, make it so only 1 person can live per home, and pick a city that is getting popular rather than the rural midwest with roommates. I'm going to side with you on healthcare, the entire field is corrupt and abusing customers to line their own pockets. This is a corruption issue rather than a scarcity issue.
- JDiculous 8y ago
  I don't think it's an odd concept to strive for robots to do the drudgery while freeing humans to live their lives how they wish. > In a heart beat I'd trade my 9-5 that pays over 6 figures to never have to work again. > Ive already noticed that I could potentially retire in the next few years. Great. You have a comfortable amount of savings and could probably continue to maintain a relatively decent quality of life without your job. Many others would love to take that 6 figure job off your back. In the end, you will be better off by being able to retire early and live a life of leisure, and the new worker will be better off because they now get to work a well-paying job that they want more than you. Housing is most definitely not the cheapest in human history, have you seen San Francisco, NYC, London, or hell any major metropolitan city? The U.S. also saddles its citizens with student loan debt and absurdly expensive healthcare.

sheepmullet 8y ago

All the west needs to do to get higher wages is significantly restrict immigration. Most western countries are at sub-replacement fertility. Then supply and demand will do its thing.

pjc50 8y ago
Immigration is significantly restricted; just take a look at the procedural requirements for yourself.
- Retric 8y ago
  I think it’s a little more complicated. Many countries discourage illegal immigration on the surface while having plenty of loopholes that encourage it. Frankly many people want a cheap labor force and their are plenty of people from other nations willing to supply it.
- JetSetWilly 8y ago
  Except you don't look at regulations to judge whether immigration is high. You look at the numbers for actual inflows of people and compare to the past. Certainly for eg. the UK the numbers for recent years are sky high compared to decades ago, so to claim that "immigration is restricted look at the requirements" is to ignore empirical reality.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    The original post I was replying to said "significantly restrict immigration". As we are finding out, to reduce immigration absolute numbers requires increasingly inhumane, bureaucratic, arbitrary and impractical processes. > decades ago Which decade did you have in mind?
    - JetSetWilly 8y ago
      Choose any decade you want. UK immigration levels are at all-time highs, even over a mere decade ago, never mind before that. > As we are finding out, to reduce immigration absolute numbers requires increasingly inhumane, bureaucratic, arbitrary and impractical processes. It isn't inhumane to say "no" to economic migrants, and it doesn't have to be bureaucratic either.
    - sheepmullet 8y ago
      > As we are finding out, to reduce immigration absolute numbers requires increasingly inhumane, bureaucratic, arbitrary and impractical processes. Why does it require any of those things? Immigration to the UK in 1995 was ~228,000 people. In 2017 it was ~550,000 people. Immigration to the UK in 1995 was no more inhumane, bureaucratic, or impractical than it was last year. It would be incredibly easy and practical to go back to 1995 levels. An order of magnitude easier than implementing UBI.

tonyedgecombe 8y ago

In a country with a constrained housing supply (like the UK) wouldn't any basic income just end up in the pockets of landlords?

tedeh 8y ago
I don't know if that is so, but as a solution "basic housing" may be required too then?
- daliusd 8y ago
  Vonnegut's Player Piano is about people living from basic housing and basic income ;-)
- pjc50 8y ago
  We could call it "council housing". We could even observe that, left to the free market, housebuilding can become unacceptably cramped and poor quality, and decide to raise the minimum standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Morris_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Morris_Committee
ajuc 8y ago
> constrained housing supply So make it unconstrained?
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  There doesn't seem to be the political will to do what is necessary. House building is up but its nowhere near where it needs to be to remove that constraint.
  - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
    That sounds like a needed social movement waiting to happen.
Firadeoclus 8y ago

mkirklions 8y ago

>enabling more people to drop out of the labor force for unenjoyable jobs. >unenjoyable jobs What an odd concept. Only in the last few decades have people even been taught the concept to pick a job you 'enjoy'. I'm wondering if every human had the option to get UBI or work, what they would choose. In a heart beat I'd trade my 9-5 that pays over 6 figures to never have to work again. I think its also worth mentioning that humans are doing so well, that maybe UBI isnt needed. Homes/food/transportation etc... are all the cheapest in human history. Ive already noticed that I could potentially retire in the next few years.

avgDev 8y ago
You are wrong. Homes are not the cheapest in the human history. As we are close to the 2007 housing bubble home prices. Here's a source with home price to income ratio. http://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/ http://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-incom... US healthcare cost is exploding. Food prices are actually going up. Transportation is a tough one, as it may include different modes of transportation, some did get cheaper.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  My expertise is food prices, google Calories Per Dollar. Thats my website. If you are going to claim food prices have gone up, you are talking about government caused inflation. I find the home situation the easiest to find a counterpoint, so we will only argue about definitions. Per sq footage, its the cheapest. If you try hard enough, you can find a way to be correct. Change the metric, make it so only 1 person can live per home, and pick a city that is getting popular rather than the rural midwest with roommates. I'm going to side with you on healthcare, the entire field is corrupt and abusing customers to line their own pockets. This is a corruption issue rather than a scarcity issue.
JDiculous 8y ago
I don't think it's an odd concept to strive for robots to do the drudgery while freeing humans to live their lives how they wish. > In a heart beat I'd trade my 9-5 that pays over 6 figures to never have to work again. > Ive already noticed that I could potentially retire in the next few years. Great. You have a comfortable amount of savings and could probably continue to maintain a relatively decent quality of life without your job. Many others would love to take that 6 figure job off your back. In the end, you will be better off by being able to retire early and live a life of leisure, and the new worker will be better off because they now get to work a well-paying job that they want more than you. Housing is most definitely not the cheapest in human history, have you seen San Francisco, NYC, London, or hell any major metropolitan city? The U.S. also saddles its citizens with student loan debt and absurdly expensive healthcare.