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That's why I don't like meetings where you're supposed to come up with a solution on the spot and then break it down into tasks immediately. That only works if

by Netcob 8y ago

That's why I don't like meetings where you're supposed to come up with a solution on the spot and then break it down into tasks immediately. That only works if you have lots of closely related experience so that the solution is trivial to you anyway, or if you're a genius. Most of the time you end up with shitty "knee-jerk" software that focuses on technical details way too much instead of solving the problem. I'll think about it, maybe do some experiments / proof-of-concept, then we can talk about it again, then I'll think about your input, and then we can discuss the tasks and sub-tasks once things are starting to make sense.

dredmorbius 8y ago
"Creativity is not a team sport", an observation from Prof Vincent Walsh on neuroscience of creativity: [There's] a very long and well-established literature in psychology that getting groups of people together is no way to come up with ideas. Creativity is not a team sport. What you're looking for is somebody's individual, intellectual trunk to make new connections and come up with something new. Let's imagine billions of neurons in my head communicating with stuff they've been talking about all their lives together: there's a high probability that occasionally they'll come up with something new. Let's now think of the line of communication that you and I have got between each other, which is impoverished, because we have to try and translate complex ideas into language, and how many times do you find you've got a good idea, it's almost in symbolic thought inside your head, and you really can't articulate it to someone. And when you do, they get the wrong idea, because really, language can't encapsulate it until it's fully formed. There's no good evidence that I know of that these brainstorming sessions will come up with a solution or a new idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfMvqkrQkYQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfMvqkrQkYQ
- lifeisstillgood 8y ago
  This I get - i often have an idea of how some code should look or work, but trying to explain it or justify it in a JIRA ticket is flat out impossible - it's easier just to write it and go there !
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  Creativity is absolutely a team sport. It's just not a timed sport.
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    I get where you're coming from. Yes, sharing and mixing of ideas between people is important. But so is solitary, quiet, away, alone time. The difference in rates and understanding of our internal and external informational exchanges is particularly crucial, as noted in the passage quoted above. It's far too easy for bad or extraneous inputs to derail the creative process.
  - jkmcf 8y ago
    I came here to say something similar. My creativity will be fairly good when I'm engaged with others. OTOH, if I need to be more than just creative, i.e. thoughtful, I need to be offline.
- lurn 8y ago
  I kind of agree. At least, that's generally the way I prefer to do it. But I find I'm most creative when I'm working with other people, as long as I like working with them. They just always have ideas, and things to add to my own ideas, that I could never reach on my own. John Cleese has a great video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5oIIPO62g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5oIIPO62g
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    Cleese's talks on this are good, personal faves, and have useful advice. But they're also oriented to a specific activity: developing comedic scripts. I'd be somewhat cautious in overgeneralising. Again, not that there aren't useful concepts, and his anti-creativity measures strike me as valid.
- commandlinefan 8y ago
  Well, file this one along with open offices and scrum with "ideas that managers wish would work so insist do work" so we're going to end up living with forever.
nabla9 8y ago
Being a smartass is a real problem. Jeff Bezos style meetings try to solve this issue. > "If we don't, the executives, like high school kids, will try to bluff their way through a meeting,"
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  Jeff Bezos meetings are extremely high processing contests of wit. Everyone reads a long document at the same time at the start of the meeting and then immediately starts debating and asking pointed questions. Only the presenter has time to prepare in advance. Bezos meetings solve the problem of people not reading the material at all, not the problem of not thinking about the problem.
  - nabla9 8y ago
    It's not a long document. Its just six pages in 30 minutes. There can be written counterproposal sometimes. The point of the meeting is not to create new ideas or solve problems. Either the presenter has the solutions or ideas written down or not. Every meeting has a decision maker. The purpose of the meeting is there to make a decision at the end. If there are still open questions, then the decision-maker assigns one or more people to research, and the needed follow-up. At the end of the next meeting, the decision is made.
mkirklions 8y ago
I had this exact problem this weekend, and I'm kinda salty. For one, I threw an engineering event, at 8pm to casually design a solution to a problem. By 11PM, there was a leading idea, and I took time to think about everything. I questioned everything. Everyone was pestering me, the leader of this event, to acknowledge this was a fantastic solution. I asked stupid questions, I asked great questions, I took time to think, I measured things, and I got crap for it. Someone even said I drank too much, which had nothing to do with my skepticism. My conclusion- >Group think took over badly >others werent thinking, they gave answers like- 'You Just....' without thinking about how difficult each of the tasks. Or 'Thats not a big deal'. >Non engineers will not be invited in the future, the gf of an engineer (who is a psychologist) was very persuasive on her idea. I couldnt believe how strong group think was, it was unanimous. The next morning we woke up and realized the idea wasnt great. I'll take being a slow thinker.
Yhippa 8y ago
I have a difficult time with this in structured work environments sometimes. I usually problem-solve with aimless walking and a series of messy throwaway prototypes until I land on something I think is a decent candidate. Having a 2-day task where you have to "develop solution for X" where you may not have worked on that before seems rather unproductive.
mixmastamyk 8y ago
Had a job interview recently where the company wanted me to redesign their complex system (presumably to work acceptably) on the spot. First thought was "I'll have the answer in six months," when the problems are really understood. No offer on that one, haha.

by Netcob 8y ago

dredmorbius 8y ago

"Creativity is not a team sport", an observation from Prof Vincent Walsh on neuroscience of creativity: [There's] a very long and well-established literature in psychology that getting groups of people together is no way to come up with ideas. Creativity is not a team sport. What you're looking for is somebody's individual, intellectual trunk to make new connections and come up with something new. Let's imagine billions of neurons in my head communicating with stuff they've been talking about all their lives together: there's a high probability that occasionally they'll come up with something new. Let's now think of the line of communication that you and I have got between each other, which is impoverished, because we have to try and translate complex ideas into language, and how many times do you find you've got a good idea, it's almost in symbolic thought inside your head, and you really can't articulate it to someone. And when you do, they get the wrong idea, because really, language can't encapsulate it until it's fully formed. There's no good evidence that I know of that these brainstorming sessions will come up with a solution or a new idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfMvqkrQkYQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfMvqkrQkYQ

lifeisstillgood 8y ago
This I get - i often have an idea of how some code should look or work, but trying to explain it or justify it in a JIRA ticket is flat out impossible - it's easier just to write it and go there !
fjsolwmv 8y ago
Creativity is absolutely a team sport. It's just not a timed sport.
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  I get where you're coming from. Yes, sharing and mixing of ideas between people is important. But so is solitary, quiet, away, alone time. The difference in rates and understanding of our internal and external informational exchanges is particularly crucial, as noted in the passage quoted above. It's far too easy for bad or extraneous inputs to derail the creative process.
- jkmcf 8y ago
  I came here to say something similar. My creativity will be fairly good when I'm engaged with others. OTOH, if I need to be more than just creative, i.e. thoughtful, I need to be offline.
lurn 8y ago
I kind of agree. At least, that's generally the way I prefer to do it. But I find I'm most creative when I'm working with other people, as long as I like working with them. They just always have ideas, and things to add to my own ideas, that I could never reach on my own. John Cleese has a great video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5oIIPO62g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5oIIPO62g
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  Cleese's talks on this are good, personal faves, and have useful advice. But they're also oriented to a specific activity: developing comedic scripts. I'd be somewhat cautious in overgeneralising. Again, not that there aren't useful concepts, and his anti-creativity measures strike me as valid.
commandlinefan 8y ago
Well, file this one along with open offices and scrum with "ideas that managers wish would work so insist do work" so we're going to end up living with forever.

nabla9 8y ago

Being a smartass is a real problem. Jeff Bezos style meetings try to solve this issue. > "If we don't, the executives, like high school kids, will try to bluff their way through a meeting,"

fjsolwmv 8y ago
Jeff Bezos meetings are extremely high processing contests of wit. Everyone reads a long document at the same time at the start of the meeting and then immediately starts debating and asking pointed questions. Only the presenter has time to prepare in advance. Bezos meetings solve the problem of people not reading the material at all, not the problem of not thinking about the problem.
- nabla9 8y ago
  It's not a long document. Its just six pages in 30 minutes. There can be written counterproposal sometimes. The point of the meeting is not to create new ideas or solve problems. Either the presenter has the solutions or ideas written down or not. Every meeting has a decision maker. The purpose of the meeting is there to make a decision at the end. If there are still open questions, then the decision-maker assigns one or more people to research, and the needed follow-up. At the end of the next meeting, the decision is made.

mkirklions 8y ago

I had this exact problem this weekend, and I'm kinda salty. For one, I threw an engineering event, at 8pm to casually design a solution to a problem. By 11PM, there was a leading idea, and I took time to think about everything. I questioned everything. Everyone was pestering me, the leader of this event, to acknowledge this was a fantastic solution. I asked stupid questions, I asked great questions, I took time to think, I measured things, and I got crap for it. Someone even said I drank too much, which had nothing to do with my skepticism. My conclusion- >Group think took over badly >others werent thinking, they gave answers like- 'You Just....' without thinking about how difficult each of the tasks. Or 'Thats not a big deal'. >Non engineers will not be invited in the future, the gf of an engineer (who is a psychologist) was very persuasive on her idea. I couldnt believe how strong group think was, it was unanimous. The next morning we woke up and realized the idea wasnt great. I'll take being a slow thinker.

Yhippa 8y ago

I have a difficult time with this in structured work environments sometimes. I usually problem-solve with aimless walking and a series of messy throwaway prototypes until I land on something I think is a decent candidate. Having a 2-day task where you have to "develop solution for X" where you may not have worked on that before seems rather unproductive.

mixmastamyk 8y ago

Had a job interview recently where the company wanted me to redesign their complex system (presumably to work acceptably) on the spot. First thought was "I'll have the answer in six months," when the problems are really understood. No offer on that one, haha.