4 ms·

How the New England town became the mythical landscape of American democracy

55 points by samclemens 8y ago

Steltek 8y ago
That's quite a long article without actually describing a modern New England Town Meeting. They still exist and no, it's not even remotely like a national "town hall". Make no mistake, they're still as boring as dirt. (Nearly) direct democracy doesn't make it suddenly more interesting to talk about road reconstruction or sewer maintenance. Many towns put their meetings up on YouTube. Search for "Annual Town Meeting", as opposed to "Special Town Meeting". Although STM's being more focused, those might be slightly more lively with debate or dissent.
- vkou 8y ago
  I've been to a lot of village council meetings. Village of ~2,000 people, I've attended biweekly meetings for ~6 years. Most (By hours spent) of the debate and dissent came from two lunatics, who, having nothing better to do, would show up to every single one of them. The year after I stopped going, police had to be involved twice. Occasionally, there would be an interesting conversation, for questions dealing with a lot of money, and non-obvious trade-offs, that were discussed by adults. Most of the time, though, the matters were routine and uncontroversial - or, if they weren't, the councilmembers' minds were made up long before the meeting started. Nowadays, I hear that they've cut speaking time for members of the public, and restricted their speaking privileges to asking questions. As anyone working at Google or Facebook knows, though, statements disguised as a question are still quite common.
  - Steltek 8y ago
    Is this in New England? Are you talking about Selectmen's meetings? At least in Massachusetts, Town Meeting is a once-a-year thing unless something critical comes up, then a Special Town Meeting is called. TM is expensive both in money and time so STMs aren't called unless it really can't wait. Selectmen meet more frequently but yes, we have some persistent contrarians with perhaps too much free time on their hands too. It's good to have a devil's advocate sometimes as it keeps everyone honest. Speaking time is mostly at the whim of the moderator, elected at the start of TM. If the Town doesn't like it, they should choose a different moderator.
    - vkou 8y ago
      No, this was in a small village in Canada.
    - cannonedhamster 8y ago
      Yes but you still have a town of council meetings on a regular basis, which is where a lot of the activities happen nowadays.
  - amyjess 8y ago
    > two lunatics, who, having nothing better to do, would show up to every single one of them It's nice to know that the Pawnee Town Hall meetings from Parks & Recreation have some basis in real life. Then again, I should know this. A couple of years ago, I went to a Rockwall, TX city council meeting to protest a transphobic bathroom bill the mayor proposed. Lots and lots and lots of people spoke. It was the Pawnee Town Hall come to life. The people for the bathroom bill included a good many people who were just plain off their rocker, including one person who was claiming that Target sells sex toys on the shelves in the children's section. Tinfoil hats and conspiracy theories galore. The people against the bathroom bill included real-life versions of both Ron Swanson and Leslie Knope. And the mayor was Jim Jamm. There were multiple Ron Swansons on the city council, though. It ended up with not a single councilmember even seconding the mayor's proposal.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- ocschwar 8y ago
  > Make no mistake, they're still as boring as dirt. Boring enough that there are still cases where the police have to go out and summon residents to the meeting to secure a quorum.
- Alex3917 8y ago
  If you look at the This Week in Public Comment videos on YouTube, it's pretty representative of what they're actually like: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=this+week+in+public+comment https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=this+week+in+pu...
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
As someone who's lived in four of the New England states I'd just like to remind everyone that the style of government that the author is idolizing tends to result in a very strong local government that gets up in everyone's business. Three states and many towns across New England were settled by people who decided that their ancestors didn't cross an ocean and risk starving so a bunch of jerks they don't agree with could tell them what to think, how to worship and generally micromanage their life. There's two sides to every coin.
- TomMckenny 8y ago
  >There's two sides to every coin. That some would move to set up their own free community is a good thing. A great luxury for low populations. But there were quite a few rival and very undemocratic "ideal" communities. The most common was the plantation. Another was the theocracy. Thankfully history (mostly) deprecated these and the ideal that survived is the town-hall, its flaws minuscule in comparison.
  - WalterBright 8y ago
    There's no shortage of people today trying to tell everyone else how to live, and trying to enforce it.
- xkcd-sucks 8y ago
  Yeah but the scope of getting up in errybody's business is limited to business that local people care about. As opposed to larger governments getting up in business that people far away care about. Case in point: In my small NE town, there has never been a discussion of "bathroom bills", but the town does care about roosters and water rights. A larger, neighboring town does care about "bathroom bills", spending tons of time and energy arguing over them, and has no concept of what it's like to live next to roosters or rely on well water. I would not like to have that group of people to have any say over the operation of my town, either as republican constituents or as direct voters.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
sandworm101 8y ago
Long article, but no real mention of how new england towns shaped US democracy. The land and climate had as much impact as the people. NE is farmland. They grow things. That means you need stable government and strong property laws to protect the farmers' investments in the land from year to year. Farms need a stable labour supply. Conversely, resource extraction communities (forestry, mining etc) care more about transportation links. They will ship people in as needed. Skill is more important than labour. And as everyone is only there temporarily, longstanding feuds tend to be put asside in the rush to make money before the resources are all extracted. The gold-rush and cattle communities of the west were politicaly very different than new england towns. Climate was also important. NE has (had) very cold and long winters. So people needed shelter (property/rent etc) and labor was availible for non-farm stuff (industrialization). Compare to the US south where the longer growing season meant less industrialization and a greater focus on labor housed as cheaply as possible.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

55 points by samclemens 8y ago

That's quite a long article without actually describing a modern New England Town Meeting. They still exist and no, it's not even remotely like a national "town hall". Make no mistake, they're still as boring as dirt. (Nearly) direct democracy doesn't make it suddenly more interesting to talk about road reconstruction or sewer maintenance. Many towns put their meetings up on YouTube. Search for "Annual Town Meeting", as opposed to "Special Town Meeting". Although STM's being more focused, those might be slightly more lively with debate or dissent.

vkou 8y ago
I've been to a lot of village council meetings. Village of ~2,000 people, I've attended biweekly meetings for ~6 years. Most (By hours spent) of the debate and dissent came from two lunatics, who, having nothing better to do, would show up to every single one of them. The year after I stopped going, police had to be involved twice. Occasionally, there would be an interesting conversation, for questions dealing with a lot of money, and non-obvious trade-offs, that were discussed by adults. Most of the time, though, the matters were routine and uncontroversial - or, if they weren't, the councilmembers' minds were made up long before the meeting started. Nowadays, I hear that they've cut speaking time for members of the public, and restricted their speaking privileges to asking questions. As anyone working at Google or Facebook knows, though, statements disguised as a question are still quite common.
- Steltek 8y ago
  Is this in New England? Are you talking about Selectmen's meetings? At least in Massachusetts, Town Meeting is a once-a-year thing unless something critical comes up, then a Special Town Meeting is called. TM is expensive both in money and time so STMs aren't called unless it really can't wait. Selectmen meet more frequently but yes, we have some persistent contrarians with perhaps too much free time on their hands too. It's good to have a devil's advocate sometimes as it keeps everyone honest. Speaking time is mostly at the whim of the moderator, elected at the start of TM. If the Town doesn't like it, they should choose a different moderator.
  - vkou 8y ago
    No, this was in a small village in Canada.
  - cannonedhamster 8y ago
    Yes but you still have a town of council meetings on a regular basis, which is where a lot of the activities happen nowadays.
- amyjess 8y ago
  > two lunatics, who, having nothing better to do, would show up to every single one of them It's nice to know that the Pawnee Town Hall meetings from Parks & Recreation have some basis in real life. Then again, I should know this. A couple of years ago, I went to a Rockwall, TX city council meeting to protest a transphobic bathroom bill the mayor proposed. Lots and lots and lots of people spoke. It was the Pawnee Town Hall come to life. The people for the bathroom bill included a good many people who were just plain off their rocker, including one person who was claiming that Target sells sex toys on the shelves in the children's section. Tinfoil hats and conspiracy theories galore. The people against the bathroom bill included real-life versions of both Ron Swanson and Leslie Knope. And the mayor was Jim Jamm. There were multiple Ron Swansons on the city council, though. It ended up with not a single councilmember even seconding the mayor's proposal.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
ocschwar 8y ago
> Make no mistake, they're still as boring as dirt. Boring enough that there are still cases where the police have to go out and summon residents to the meeting to secure a quorum.
Alex3917 8y ago
If you look at the This Week in Public Comment videos on YouTube, it's pretty representative of what they're actually like: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=this+week+in+public+comment https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=this+week+in+pu...

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

As someone who's lived in four of the New England states I'd just like to remind everyone that the style of government that the author is idolizing tends to result in a very strong local government that gets up in everyone's business. Three states and many towns across New England were settled by people who decided that their ancestors didn't cross an ocean and risk starving so a bunch of jerks they don't agree with could tell them what to think, how to worship and generally micromanage their life. There's two sides to every coin.

TomMckenny 8y ago
>There's two sides to every coin. That some would move to set up their own free community is a good thing. A great luxury for low populations. But there were quite a few rival and very undemocratic "ideal" communities. The most common was the plantation. Another was the theocracy. Thankfully history (mostly) deprecated these and the ideal that survived is the town-hall, its flaws minuscule in comparison.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  There's no shortage of people today trying to tell everyone else how to live, and trying to enforce it.
xkcd-sucks 8y ago
Yeah but the scope of getting up in errybody's business is limited to business that local people care about. As opposed to larger governments getting up in business that people far away care about. Case in point: In my small NE town, there has never been a discussion of "bathroom bills", but the town does care about roosters and water rights. A larger, neighboring town does care about "bathroom bills", spending tons of time and energy arguing over them, and has no concept of what it's like to live next to roosters or rely on well water. I would not like to have that group of people to have any say over the operation of my town, either as republican constituents or as direct voters.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago

sandworm101 8y ago

Long article, but no real mention of how new england towns shaped US democracy. The land and climate had as much impact as the people. NE is farmland. They grow things. That means you need stable government and strong property laws to protect the farmers' investments in the land from year to year. Farms need a stable labour supply. Conversely, resource extraction communities (forestry, mining etc) care more about transportation links. They will ship people in as needed. Skill is more important than labour. And as everyone is only there temporarily, longstanding feuds tend to be put asside in the rush to make money before the resources are all extracted. The gold-rush and cattle communities of the west were politicaly very different than new england towns. Climate was also important. NE has (had) very cold and long winters. So people needed shelter (property/rent etc) and labor was availible for non-farm stuff (industrialization). Compare to the US south where the longer growing season meant less industrialization and a greater focus on labor housed as cheaply as possible.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]