5 ms·

This is why I don't support universal health care. Health care is expensive because of basic supply and demand, everybody needs health care and doctors and drug

This is why I don't support universal health care. Health care is expensive because of basic supply and demand, everybody needs health care and doctors and drugs are expensive to train/develop. Government regulation can't just magically make a few million nurses and doctors appear, can't make cancer drugs develop themselves. It will only kill investment and innovation in the medical field. Investing trillions in universal health care would just be wasted money on a shitty system, like trying to make horses faster rather than inventing the car and plane. The solution to affordable healthcare will be a combination of AI for diagnosis and surgery plus cloning and stem cells for organ transplants. People need to be patient and put things in perspective, 100 years ago the richest person on earth could die from an infected scratch because we didn't have antibiotics. We've come very far in a short period of time.

yoavm 8y ago
How are these two things contradicting? You can have universal health care and still have the rich paying for private services and research, with their own money and with their taxes. (In my country we have a relatively-to-the-US wonderful UHC system, and we still see a lot of research, experiments, competition and innovation)
- throwawy3589 8y ago
  The funding for universal health care would have to come from somewhere, probably higher taxes. So instead of being invested, the money would be stuffed into an inefficient system. There's also the matter of scale, US system would be far larger than any individual Euro country and thus more expensive due to bureaucracy. Also the issue of the US having much lower population density and how to handle that, ie are rural people going to have to drive 5 hours to get the health care their taxes pay for? Also worth noting that the US is essentially the profit center for the entire world's pharma industry. If that was eliminated investment would be reduced globally, not just the US. US citizens are currently subsidizing European countries public healthcare. https://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-2112662 https://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe...
  - allannienhuis 8y ago
    re: density- Canada has even lower pop density than the US, and our universal health care system compares very favourably. Your arguments seem like nothing more than fear-mongering to me.
    - throwawy3589 8y ago
      around 80% of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of the US boarder. Canada's density is skewed by northern land with nobody living there. https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c86ad127d43c7e1f9a62d2ec8a7b814 https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c86ad127d43c7e1f9a62d...
      - your-nanny 8y ago
        so? you think most Canadians cross the border to go to the doctor? pretty laughable
        throwawy3589 8y ago
        No, but having to provide health care to citizens in rural areas is expensive. Many elderly citizens wouldn't be able to travel to large cities to get the health care their taxes paid for. This is an issue that's largely non-existent in europe.
        allannienhuis 8y ago
        Basic health care is available in most rural areas without issue. Yes there are some issues with attracting doctors & specialist to live outside major metro areas, but my understanding is that's true in the U.S. as well. I live a rural area a 3hr drive (including ferry time) from a major city centre, but have a nice public health clinic 15 minutes from my house. Ambulances can reach my home in 8 minutes. We have a quite capable hospital 45 minutes drive away which has air evac capability. Advanced healthcare (eg cancer, cardiac care) is available at regional hospitals, with no-cost transport for care. I had a heart attack a couple of months ago, and received world-class care including open-heart surgery. During that time of extreme stress for me and my family, not for one minute did I think about the financial consequences other than missing some income while I was unable to work. I don't think of our medical system as being 'free' - I paid for that care through my taxes and a modest premium (today around $75/month per person - BC is I think the last province to still have user-paid premiums and they're scheduled to be phased out over the next couple of years). I'm really happy with the value for $ spent. Our health care system costs taxpayers just over $4,000 CAD per person per year. Other figures put the total health care spending (including other services such as dental, chiropractic care, etc) at about $6,000 CAD /person/year. OECD sourced figures put the U.S at about $12,000 CAD /person/year. The statement that universal health care must be more expensive than a privately administered system ("money would be stuffed into an inefficient system") is simply a myth. Again, it seems like your comments are nothing but fear-mongering. Perhaps you honestly believe them. Please consider that you might be simply repeating the arguments you've been given by those with a vested interest in keeping the U.S. system as it is now in place. To be fair: our Canadian system isn't perfect. Some people fall through the cracks. Some people fight with their insurer (the government) about coverage for rare chronic conditions. Not everyone is completely happy with the system or the treatment they receive. I'm pretty certain that those same statements can be made of any health care system in the world. But for the vast majority of our citizens, including those like me that live in fairly rural areas, it functions pretty well. https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-canadas-health-spending-compare-internationally https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-canadas-health-spending-comp...
bootloop 8y ago
I mean I don't blame you. A system which worked for you in the past because of your privileges will continue to work for you and will be able to offer you even greater services because you are able to pay for it. Just a damn shame for people who can't afford it. Too bad. Wait. I do blame you. I also want to remind you that people die in civilised countries of illnesses which can be cured but they can't afford it. And it's because of people which are full of ignorance.
- throwawy3589 8y ago
  Idealists like you are why 100 million+ died due to communism in the 20th century. We've gone from borderline stone-age medical treatment where basic surgery was impossible and simple infections untreatable to where we are today in less than a century. Is everything perfect right now? No, but it's improving steadily and I think with the current advances affordable health care will be possible within the next 10-20 years without government mandating it.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - your-nanny 8y ago
    this is historically illiterate, and frankly insulting. if there is any starry eyed idealist here it's.. you.
    - throwawy3589 8y ago
      I don't recall the Soviet Union creating many new drugs when they were following Lysenkoism and denying genetics for ideological reasons. The result was 50 million people dying in China alone. But I'm sure that was just the evil imperialists fault. The US adopting universal health care would be a waste of trillions of dollars and arguably the dumbest, most selfish, and most deadly decision in human history when accounting for the much better way those trillions could be spent.
      - 8y ago
DanBC 8y ago
> Health care is expensive because of basic supply and demand, Please can you explain the principle behind certificates of need, used in the US? Because they seem to imply that greater supply will increase, not decrease, cost.
walshemj 8y ago
Its all fun and games until you suddenly have chronic kidney failure diagnosed - doubt you'd be singing the same tune then
point78 8y ago
Wait, you really have no idea how taxes work in Europe? Higher taxes are an investment, not an expense. The public pays higher taxes for free education for example so our future doctors aren't 500k in debt when they graduate. Students entering the programs understand this, hence when they graduate they make lower salaries and then pay onto the next generations future. Taxes are an investment in society, you get positive return on them. Just lol at the completely broken US system of education, health care and social services. You live in a third world country, I honestly feel bad for you.
AngryData 8y ago
But you end up paying even more through insurance premiums than if you had paid it out straight to medical companies through your taxes. How does paying an entire middleman for-profit industry magically make things cheaper?

yoavm 8y ago

How are these two things contradicting? You can have universal health care and still have the rich paying for private services and research, with their own money and with their taxes. (In my country we have a relatively-to-the-US wonderful UHC system, and we still see a lot of research, experiments, competition and innovation)

throwawy3589 8y ago
The funding for universal health care would have to come from somewhere, probably higher taxes. So instead of being invested, the money would be stuffed into an inefficient system. There's also the matter of scale, US system would be far larger than any individual Euro country and thus more expensive due to bureaucracy. Also the issue of the US having much lower population density and how to handle that, ie are rural people going to have to drive 5 hours to get the health care their taxes pay for? Also worth noting that the US is essentially the profit center for the entire world's pharma industry. If that was eliminated investment would be reduced globally, not just the US. US citizens are currently subsidizing European countries public healthcare. https://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-2112662 https://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe...
- allannienhuis 8y ago
  re: density- Canada has even lower pop density than the US, and our universal health care system compares very favourably. Your arguments seem like nothing more than fear-mongering to me.
  - throwawy3589 8y ago
    around 80% of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of the US boarder. Canada's density is skewed by northern land with nobody living there. https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c86ad127d43c7e1f9a62d2ec8a7b814 https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c86ad127d43c7e1f9a62d...
    - your-nanny 8y ago
      so? you think most Canadians cross the border to go to the doctor? pretty laughable
      - throwawy3589 8y ago
        No, but having to provide health care to citizens in rural areas is expensive. Many elderly citizens wouldn't be able to travel to large cities to get the health care their taxes paid for. This is an issue that's largely non-existent in europe.
        allannienhuis 8y ago
        Basic health care is available in most rural areas without issue. Yes there are some issues with attracting doctors & specialist to live outside major metro areas, but my understanding is that's true in the U.S. as well. I live a rural area a 3hr drive (including ferry time) from a major city centre, but have a nice public health clinic 15 minutes from my house. Ambulances can reach my home in 8 minutes. We have a quite capable hospital 45 minutes drive away which has air evac capability. Advanced healthcare (eg cancer, cardiac care) is available at regional hospitals, with no-cost transport for care. I had a heart attack a couple of months ago, and received world-class care including open-heart surgery. During that time of extreme stress for me and my family, not for one minute did I think about the financial consequences other than missing some income while I was unable to work. I don't think of our medical system as being 'free' - I paid for that care through my taxes and a modest premium (today around $75/month per person - BC is I think the last province to still have user-paid premiums and they're scheduled to be phased out over the next couple of years). I'm really happy with the value for $ spent. Our health care system costs taxpayers just over $4,000 CAD per person per year. Other figures put the total health care spending (including other services such as dental, chiropractic care, etc) at about $6,000 CAD /person/year. OECD sourced figures put the U.S at about $12,000 CAD /person/year. The statement that universal health care must be more expensive than a privately administered system ("money would be stuffed into an inefficient system") is simply a myth. Again, it seems like your comments are nothing but fear-mongering. Perhaps you honestly believe them. Please consider that you might be simply repeating the arguments you've been given by those with a vested interest in keeping the U.S. system as it is now in place. To be fair: our Canadian system isn't perfect. Some people fall through the cracks. Some people fight with their insurer (the government) about coverage for rare chronic conditions. Not everyone is completely happy with the system or the treatment they receive. I'm pretty certain that those same statements can be made of any health care system in the world. But for the vast majority of our citizens, including those like me that live in fairly rural areas, it functions pretty well. https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-canadas-health-spending-compare-internationally https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-canadas-health-spending-comp...

bootloop 8y ago

I mean I don't blame you. A system which worked for you in the past because of your privileges will continue to work for you and will be able to offer you even greater services because you are able to pay for it. Just a damn shame for people who can't afford it. Too bad. Wait. I do blame you. I also want to remind you that people die in civilised countries of illnesses which can be cured but they can't afford it. And it's because of people which are full of ignorance.

throwawy3589 8y ago
Idealists like you are why 100 million+ died due to communism in the 20th century. We've gone from borderline stone-age medical treatment where basic surgery was impossible and simple infections untreatable to where we are today in less than a century. Is everything perfect right now? No, but it's improving steadily and I think with the current advances affordable health care will be possible within the next 10-20 years without government mandating it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- your-nanny 8y ago
  this is historically illiterate, and frankly insulting. if there is any starry eyed idealist here it's.. you.
  - throwawy3589 8y ago
    I don't recall the Soviet Union creating many new drugs when they were following Lysenkoism and denying genetics for ideological reasons. The result was 50 million people dying in China alone. But I'm sure that was just the evil imperialists fault. The US adopting universal health care would be a waste of trillions of dollars and arguably the dumbest, most selfish, and most deadly decision in human history when accounting for the much better way those trillions could be spent.
    - 8y ago

DanBC 8y ago

> Health care is expensive because of basic supply and demand, Please can you explain the principle behind certificates of need, used in the US? Because they seem to imply that greater supply will increase, not decrease, cost.

walshemj 8y ago

Its all fun and games until you suddenly have chronic kidney failure diagnosed - doubt you'd be singing the same tune then

point78 8y ago

Wait, you really have no idea how taxes work in Europe? Higher taxes are an investment, not an expense. The public pays higher taxes for free education for example so our future doctors aren't 500k in debt when they graduate. Students entering the programs understand this, hence when they graduate they make lower salaries and then pay onto the next generations future. Taxes are an investment in society, you get positive return on them. Just lol at the completely broken US system of education, health care and social services. You live in a third world country, I honestly feel bad for you.

AngryData 8y ago

But you end up paying even more through insurance premiums than if you had paid it out straight to medical companies through your taxes. How does paying an entire middleman for-profit industry magically make things cheaper?