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I can see the point about "in the middle of nowhere", but aside from invoking classist and rural vs. urban prejudices, why should it being a "double-wide traile

I can see the point about "in the middle of nowhere", but aside from invoking classist and rural vs. urban prejudices, why should it being a "double-wide trailer" change anyone's opinion?

tptacek 16y ago
It wasn't a large home, invested with generations of family sentiment, threatening a tree-lined street of houses. Put more bluntly: the property damage we're talking about here may have been minimal; to the person suggesting that the residents should have been allowed to pay, say, $5000 to get the department to help --- well, that may have been 40-50% of the value of the structure.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  Is your point that the residents might not be able to pay the $5000 bills in such a case?
  - tptacek 16y ago
    My point is that absent some actual meaningful obligation, perhaps the fire department didn't have a particularly strong moral reason to engage with this fire. Even in the city, the department might let, say, a garage burn to the ground.
    - Semiapies 16y ago
      A garage is not usually a place people live in, making it a qualitatively different thing. You're suggesting a "moral" difference between expensive homes and inexpensive homes. People generally live in double-wide trailers because they can't afford nicer houses. If someone's trailer burns down, that person is out of a house just as much as some guy in a McMansion would be if it burned down. Someone whose double-wide burned down probably has less saved money and fewer resources to take care of emself with than someone who just lost a McMansion.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        Ok. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying, the specifics of the situation --- a house that was probably worth low 5 figures --- do matter to me.
        Semiapies 16y ago
        Fair enough, but why? I'm not trying to be leading here, I just don't understand.
        Retric 16y ago
        Let's suppose the chance of a fire is 1% every 10 years. So 100 houses pay 100 * 75$/year * 10 years = 75,000$ per fire. Now if the house is worth < 75,000$ then paying the cost of putting it out is not worth it to the property owner. As to why it might cost that much per fire, it's probably low probability event so you need to pay for all the time, training, and equipment that sit's unused between emergency's. Add in the overhead in showing up to events like this one where they receive zero compensation and you have a major free rider problem.
        Semiapies 16y ago
        Working back from the fee is a very questionable assumption for the cost. For that matter, I asked whether it was a case of people not reasonably being able to afford the cost five levels up; I'm asking about a "moral" distinction tptacek sees.

I can see the point about "in the middle of nowhere", but aside from invoking classist and rural vs. urban prejudices, why should it being a "double-wide trailer" change anyone's opinion?

tptacek 16y ago

It wasn't a large home, invested with generations of family sentiment, threatening a tree-lined street of houses. Put more bluntly: the property damage we're talking about here may have been minimal; to the person suggesting that the residents should have been allowed to pay, say, $5000 to get the department to help --- well, that may have been 40-50% of the value of the structure.

Semiapies 16y ago
Is your point that the residents might not be able to pay the $5000 bills in such a case?
- tptacek 16y ago
  My point is that absent some actual meaningful obligation, perhaps the fire department didn't have a particularly strong moral reason to engage with this fire. Even in the city, the department might let, say, a garage burn to the ground.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    A garage is not usually a place people live in, making it a qualitatively different thing. You're suggesting a "moral" difference between expensive homes and inexpensive homes. People generally live in double-wide trailers because they can't afford nicer houses. If someone's trailer burns down, that person is out of a house just as much as some guy in a McMansion would be if it burned down. Someone whose double-wide burned down probably has less saved money and fewer resources to take care of emself with than someone who just lost a McMansion.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      Ok. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying, the specifics of the situation --- a house that was probably worth low 5 figures --- do matter to me.
      - Semiapies 16y ago
        Fair enough, but why? I'm not trying to be leading here, I just don't understand.
        Retric 16y ago
        Let's suppose the chance of a fire is 1% every 10 years. So 100 houses pay 100 * 75$/year * 10 years = 75,000$ per fire. Now if the house is worth < 75,000$ then paying the cost of putting it out is not worth it to the property owner. As to why it might cost that much per fire, it's probably low probability event so you need to pay for all the time, training, and equipment that sit's unused between emergency's. Add in the overhead in showing up to events like this one where they receive zero compensation and you have a major free rider problem.
        Semiapies 16y ago
        Working back from the fee is a very questionable assumption for the cost. For that matter, I asked whether it was a case of people not reasonably being able to afford the cost five levels up; I'm asking about a "moral" distinction tptacek sees.