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“I don't think people really realise how extreme the cultural divide between _immigrants_ and _natives_ are in the West. The US would have elected Trump in a la

by nfg 8y ago

“I don't think people really realise how extreme the cultural divide between _immigrants_ and _natives_ are in the West. The US would have elected Trump in a land slide were there no _minorities_” So whites are native to the US but blacks or hispanics aren’t?

kypro 8y ago
I think you know what I meant, although I should have been clearer. I'll point out this "gotcha" style of response is very common in these kinds of conversations and it's very easy to do on people like myself who had a poor education and who's literacy ability is very low. It's normally done as a tactic of bad-faith to brand people like myself as racist or to ignore the actual point I was trying to make - which you have done. So to respond... I probably should have said minorities both times. Immigrants is too general of a term, even minorities is a little too general, but on average, with the current immigration policies in the west we select both immigrants who have significant social-economic difference to the population residing in the country being immigrated to - that residing population being on average White and culturally European, and the immigrating population being on average non-white and culturally non-western. Although that said, I understand some minorities are better cultural fits than the average white European so you have to be careful with generalisations here. If our immigration policies were more culturally selective it wouldn't be necessary to revert to cultural generalisations of different races and ethnicities. For example, I welcome educated culturally western middle-eastern immigrants, it's just that isn't on average what we get from the middle east immigrants. And educated culturally western immigrants tend to come from the west. Would you like to address the more important points I made in my reply now?
- nfg 8y ago
  I’m not entirely sure I do know what you mean. Or rather I fear I know exactly what you do. You are saying that “minorities” in Europe have, on a population level, radically different world views to native people. I’ve had to reword that sentence several times to avoid saying “white people”, and I think that’s the nub of the issue. What you’re introducing as a cultural issue seems on some level (statistical at best it seems) a racial issue to you. That’s even clearer when it comes to your Trump example which is what I was attempting to point out (US non-whites being no less immigrants than whites). The problem for me is that taking a racial approach to political or moral issues is repellent, it simply isn’t acceptable to me to “revert to cultural generalisations of different races and ethnicities”, its lazy and utterly counterproductive. I think it’s unfair to say I’m attacking you in bad-faith - my comment was very much material to what I saw as being generally wrong in your argument. For what it’s worth I saw and see no indication whatsoever that your literacy is less than my own. I hoped you would read the inconsistency I pointed out and see that it copperfastened the racial element of your argument. I see now you already know that. I’m not interested in debating your own experiences since they are your own.
  - kypro 8y ago
    > You are saying that “minorities” in Europe have, on a population level, radically different world views to native people. I’ve had to reword that sentence several times to avoid saying “white people”, and I think that’s the nub of the issue. What you’re introducing as a cultural issue seems on some level (statistical at best it seems) a racial issue to you. I'm not seeing an argument here, just a moral objection to reality. Yes, statistically it would appear people from different backgrounds are really quite different. How much that is nature vs nurture I wouldn't know and I don't think is important. What I know is that there is a significant statistical difference which we don't seem to be able to heal in any western country currently running this multicultural experiment. So then the question becomes whether or not this difference is tolerable and if it isn't what do we do about it? And you probably know my answer here, for me as a left-wing British liberal Islam is an intolerable cultural difference which I can not morally allow to take root in my country. So the only moral answer I have is to stop this experiment while we still can. I don't believe it's immoral to have borders, but it is (in my opinion) immoral to allow my country to become more Islamic, or to deport people for having different beliefs later down the line. So I see a need to stop this in a peaceful way as soon as possible while we still can. > The problem for me is that taking a racial approach to political or moral issues is repellent, it simply isn’t acceptable to me to “revert to cultural generalisations of different races and ethnicities”, its lazy and utterly counterproductive. Well I disagree that I'm taking a racial approach. I don't care about race, I care about the statistical reality of mass immigration into my country. If my country decided to import tens of thousands of white people from the Westboro Baptist Church I would object just as strongly. I don't believe any far-right religious group is in my countries best interest to welcome and I don't believe you can easily integrate these kinds of dogmatic people. But fine, if you object what's your solution? Do you think I'm glad that mass immigration isn't working? Do you think I'm glad that different groups of people from around the world seem to want different things, or how we've welcomed these ideological conflicts into our countries? Please understand I think your position is immoral and objectionable too. I think your ignoring reality which will only result in political (and enviably racial) conflict - which seems to be exactly what's happening in Europe and the US today. So if you disagree, please offer solutions. Unless of course you think it's okay that London is now becoming increasingly homophobic and rife with terrorism and homicide? Polling in the UK suggests that around half of Muslims in the UK believe in Sharia law, and at the rate Pew Research believes the Muslim population will grow in the UK over the next few decades that stat should really really frighten you. I want a humane and moral outcome too. And I believe restricting immigration as soon as possible is the most moral solution we currently have. I wish it could be different. I used to be pro-open borders, but I changed my mind after having conversations like this. The statistics pose an obvious problem to anyone like myself with left-wing sensibilities. > I think it’s unfair to say I’m attacking you in bad-faith - my comment was very much material to what I saw as being generally wrong in your argument. For what it’s worth I saw and see no indication whatsoever that your literacy is less than my own. I hoped you would read the inconsistency I pointed out and see that it copperfastened the racial element of your argument. I see now you already know that. I’m not interested in debating your own experiences since they are your own. Alright, I'm sorry if I jumped the gun a little there. You have to understand as someone who holds the positions I do I get people trying to accuse me of racism as a way of dismissing my arguments all the time. It's exhausting.

by nfg 8y ago

kypro 8y ago

I think you know what I meant, although I should have been clearer. I'll point out this "gotcha" style of response is very common in these kinds of conversations and it's very easy to do on people like myself who had a poor education and who's literacy ability is very low. It's normally done as a tactic of bad-faith to brand people like myself as racist or to ignore the actual point I was trying to make - which you have done. So to respond... I probably should have said minorities both times. Immigrants is too general of a term, even minorities is a little too general, but on average, with the current immigration policies in the west we select both immigrants who have significant social-economic difference to the population residing in the country being immigrated to - that residing population being on average White and culturally European, and the immigrating population being on average non-white and culturally non-western. Although that said, I understand some minorities are better cultural fits than the average white European so you have to be careful with generalisations here. If our immigration policies were more culturally selective it wouldn't be necessary to revert to cultural generalisations of different races and ethnicities. For example, I welcome educated culturally western middle-eastern immigrants, it's just that isn't on average what we get from the middle east immigrants. And educated culturally western immigrants tend to come from the west. Would you like to address the more important points I made in my reply now?

nfg 8y ago
I’m not entirely sure I do know what you mean. Or rather I fear I know exactly what you do. You are saying that “minorities” in Europe have, on a population level, radically different world views to native people. I’ve had to reword that sentence several times to avoid saying “white people”, and I think that’s the nub of the issue. What you’re introducing as a cultural issue seems on some level (statistical at best it seems) a racial issue to you. That’s even clearer when it comes to your Trump example which is what I was attempting to point out (US non-whites being no less immigrants than whites). The problem for me is that taking a racial approach to political or moral issues is repellent, it simply isn’t acceptable to me to “revert to cultural generalisations of different races and ethnicities”, its lazy and utterly counterproductive. I think it’s unfair to say I’m attacking you in bad-faith - my comment was very much material to what I saw as being generally wrong in your argument. For what it’s worth I saw and see no indication whatsoever that your literacy is less than my own. I hoped you would read the inconsistency I pointed out and see that it copperfastened the racial element of your argument. I see now you already know that. I’m not interested in debating your own experiences since they are your own.
- kypro 8y ago
  > You are saying that “minorities” in Europe have, on a population level, radically different world views to native people. I’ve had to reword that sentence several times to avoid saying “white people”, and I think that’s the nub of the issue. What you’re introducing as a cultural issue seems on some level (statistical at best it seems) a racial issue to you. I'm not seeing an argument here, just a moral objection to reality. Yes, statistically it would appear people from different backgrounds are really quite different. How much that is nature vs nurture I wouldn't know and I don't think is important. What I know is that there is a significant statistical difference which we don't seem to be able to heal in any western country currently running this multicultural experiment. So then the question becomes whether or not this difference is tolerable and if it isn't what do we do about it? And you probably know my answer here, for me as a left-wing British liberal Islam is an intolerable cultural difference which I can not morally allow to take root in my country. So the only moral answer I have is to stop this experiment while we still can. I don't believe it's immoral to have borders, but it is (in my opinion) immoral to allow my country to become more Islamic, or to deport people for having different beliefs later down the line. So I see a need to stop this in a peaceful way as soon as possible while we still can. > The problem for me is that taking a racial approach to political or moral issues is repellent, it simply isn’t acceptable to me to “revert to cultural generalisations of different races and ethnicities”, its lazy and utterly counterproductive. Well I disagree that I'm taking a racial approach. I don't care about race, I care about the statistical reality of mass immigration into my country. If my country decided to import tens of thousands of white people from the Westboro Baptist Church I would object just as strongly. I don't believe any far-right religious group is in my countries best interest to welcome and I don't believe you can easily integrate these kinds of dogmatic people. But fine, if you object what's your solution? Do you think I'm glad that mass immigration isn't working? Do you think I'm glad that different groups of people from around the world seem to want different things, or how we've welcomed these ideological conflicts into our countries? Please understand I think your position is immoral and objectionable too. I think your ignoring reality which will only result in political (and enviably racial) conflict - which seems to be exactly what's happening in Europe and the US today. So if you disagree, please offer solutions. Unless of course you think it's okay that London is now becoming increasingly homophobic and rife with terrorism and homicide? Polling in the UK suggests that around half of Muslims in the UK believe in Sharia law, and at the rate Pew Research believes the Muslim population will grow in the UK over the next few decades that stat should really really frighten you. I want a humane and moral outcome too. And I believe restricting immigration as soon as possible is the most moral solution we currently have. I wish it could be different. I used to be pro-open borders, but I changed my mind after having conversations like this. The statistics pose an obvious problem to anyone like myself with left-wing sensibilities. > I think it’s unfair to say I’m attacking you in bad-faith - my comment was very much material to what I saw as being generally wrong in your argument. For what it’s worth I saw and see no indication whatsoever that your literacy is less than my own. I hoped you would read the inconsistency I pointed out and see that it copperfastened the racial element of your argument. I see now you already know that. I’m not interested in debating your own experiences since they are your own. Alright, I'm sorry if I jumped the gun a little there. You have to understand as someone who holds the positions I do I get people trying to accuse me of racism as a way of dismissing my arguments all the time. It's exhausting.