5 ms·

you're literally supporting a company because of bullshit policies that every developer would have an issue with if it was microsoft.

by soperj 8y ago

scarface74 8y ago
Which “bullshit” policy is that?
- soperj 8y ago
  >Only on the Mac can I develop for every mainstream desktop and mobile OS.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    How is that a “bullshit policy”?
    - vetinari 8y ago
      Because it's by design. It's not that it is difficult to add a aarch64/ios backed to your favourite compiler. Making the artefact provisionable to emulator (which you would get on macOS only anyway, because what's inside is copyrighted and thus non-distributable) or physical device is entirely another game. Apple is locking you in and you reward them for that.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        There is no such thing as an “iOS emulator”. The iOS simulator uses an x86 compiled version of your code and links to it an x86 build of the iOS framework. Again there is an existence proof you can deploy code directly from Windows to iOS devices.... https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/11/microsoft-now-lets-ios-developers-deploy-run-and-test-their-apps-directly-from-windows/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/11/microsoft-now-lets-ios-dev... Microsoft tells us that it talked to Apple about this functionality and that it has its rival’s blessing and that the Live Player application complies with all of Apple’s usual rules..
        vetinari 8y ago
        > There is no such thing as an “iOS emulator”. The iOS simulator uses an x86 compiled version of your code and links to it an x86 build of the iOS framework. Now you are playing word games, just to avoid the point.
        scarface74 8y ago
        Now you are playing word games, just to avoid the point. It’s not a word game. Both of your assertions were incorrect. You no more need Apples proprietary “emulator” to develop apps for iOS - Xamarin is proof of that, nor is there a “policy” against developing or deploying iOS apps without a Mac - again Xamarin is proof of that. Calling Apples simulator an emulator is just as technically incorrect as saying using Safari and setting the window size to match mobile screens an “emulator”
        vetinari 8y ago
        In the context of this debate it does not matter, whether it is emulator or simulator underneath. What matters is, that you cannot run it on another OS, because Apple does not supply one. You cannot supply your own, because the emulator/simulator/whatever has to run Apple code inside, and you don't have permission to distribute it, even if you had the inclination to make your own emulator/simulator/whatever. So OK, Microsoft made an agreement and can now provision iOS packages. They had to find a way to test-run them somehow, and their solution won't allow you to write against native frameworks, only against theirs, which they can run on their platform.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        scarface74 8y ago
        And you think that developing on Android is better? The emulator is running in x86 with an ARM emulator that running a Java virtual machine is giving you any “guarantees” (your words in a previous post) on how it will work on the device?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- esrauch 8y ago
  Presumably the policy that iOS apps can only be built on Macs. It is actually against ToS, it is not just that Apple doesn't provide devtools on other operating systems.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    That’s not true either. Again there is an existence proof - Xamarin. You can develop on Windows. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/ios/get-started/installation/windows/ https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/ios/get-started/ins... And use Microsoft’s hosted build environment for up to 40 hours a month for free. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/vsts/pipelines/agents/hosted https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/vsts/pipelines/agents/hoste... The whole kerfuffle you are referring to is about 7 years out of date.
    - soperj 8y ago
      so either: >Only on the Mac can I develop for every mainstream desktop and mobile OS. is not true. or it's bullshit policy. pick your poison.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        How is it “Apple’s policy”? Apple chooses not to write a tool chain for Windows or Linux. If a third party once to make one, they are free to do so. The post I was responding to said “it was against Apple’s TOS”, probably referring to a policy that was rescinded back in 2011. There is a big difference between Apple not allowing something and Apple not supporting something. I choose to write native apps for the platforms I care about. If I wanted to use Xamarin I could.
        esrauch 8y ago
        To make a build of a xaramin app for publishing to the iOS store dont you need a Mac at least for one stage? It looks like you do under the "Archive for Publishing" section here: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/ios/deploy-test/app-distribution/app-store-distribution/publishing-to-the-app-store?tabs=vswin https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/ios/deploy-test/app... It's also against ToS to virtualize OSX on non-Mac hardware as far as I know. I don't think they are just doing that for fun.

you're literally supporting a company because of bullshit policies that every developer would have an issue with if it was microsoft.

by soperj 8y ago

you're literally supporting a company because of bullshit policies that every developer would have an issue with if it was microsoft.

scarface74 8y ago

Which “bullshit” policy is that?

soperj 8y ago
>Only on the Mac can I develop for every mainstream desktop and mobile OS.
- scarface74 8y ago
  How is that a “bullshit policy”?
  - vetinari 8y ago
    Because it's by design. It's not that it is difficult to add a aarch64/ios backed to your favourite compiler. Making the artefact provisionable to emulator (which you would get on macOS only anyway, because what's inside is copyrighted and thus non-distributable) or physical device is entirely another game. Apple is locking you in and you reward them for that.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      There is no such thing as an “iOS emulator”. The iOS simulator uses an x86 compiled version of your code and links to it an x86 build of the iOS framework. Again there is an existence proof you can deploy code directly from Windows to iOS devices.... https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/11/microsoft-now-lets-ios-developers-deploy-run-and-test-their-apps-directly-from-windows/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/11/microsoft-now-lets-ios-dev... Microsoft tells us that it talked to Apple about this functionality and that it has its rival’s blessing and that the Live Player application complies with all of Apple’s usual rules..
      - vetinari 8y ago
        > There is no such thing as an “iOS emulator”. The iOS simulator uses an x86 compiled version of your code and links to it an x86 build of the iOS framework. Now you are playing word games, just to avoid the point.
        scarface74 8y ago
        Now you are playing word games, just to avoid the point. It’s not a word game. Both of your assertions were incorrect. You no more need Apples proprietary “emulator” to develop apps for iOS - Xamarin is proof of that, nor is there a “policy” against developing or deploying iOS apps without a Mac - again Xamarin is proof of that. Calling Apples simulator an emulator is just as technically incorrect as saying using Safari and setting the window size to match mobile screens an “emulator”
        vetinari 8y ago
        In the context of this debate it does not matter, whether it is emulator or simulator underneath. What matters is, that you cannot run it on another OS, because Apple does not supply one. You cannot supply your own, because the emulator/simulator/whatever has to run Apple code inside, and you don't have permission to distribute it, even if you had the inclination to make your own emulator/simulator/whatever. So OK, Microsoft made an agreement and can now provision iOS packages. They had to find a way to test-run them somehow, and their solution won't allow you to write against native frameworks, only against theirs, which they can run on their platform.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        scarface74 8y ago
        And you think that developing on Android is better? The emulator is running in x86 with an ARM emulator that running a Java virtual machine is giving you any “guarantees” (your words in a previous post) on how it will work on the device?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
esrauch 8y ago
Presumably the policy that iOS apps can only be built on Macs. It is actually against ToS, it is not just that Apple doesn't provide devtools on other operating systems.
- scarface74 8y ago
  That’s not true either. Again there is an existence proof - Xamarin. You can develop on Windows. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/ios/get-started/installation/windows/ https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/ios/get-started/ins... And use Microsoft’s hosted build environment for up to 40 hours a month for free. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/vsts/pipelines/agents/hosted https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/vsts/pipelines/agents/hoste... The whole kerfuffle you are referring to is about 7 years out of date.
  - soperj 8y ago
    so either: >Only on the Mac can I develop for every mainstream desktop and mobile OS. is not true. or it's bullshit policy. pick your poison.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      How is it “Apple’s policy”? Apple chooses not to write a tool chain for Windows or Linux. If a third party once to make one, they are free to do so. The post I was responding to said “it was against Apple’s TOS”, probably referring to a policy that was rescinded back in 2011. There is a big difference between Apple not allowing something and Apple not supporting something. I choose to write native apps for the platforms I care about. If I wanted to use Xamarin I could.
      - esrauch 8y ago
        To make a build of a xaramin app for publishing to the iOS store dont you need a Mac at least for one stage? It looks like you do under the "Archive for Publishing" section here: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/ios/deploy-test/app-distribution/app-store-distribution/publishing-to-the-app-store?tabs=vswin https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/ios/deploy-test/app... It's also against ToS to virtualize OSX on non-Mac hardware as far as I know. I don't think they are just doing that for fun.