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> too few Linux app developers with a user-oriented mindset By "user-oriented", do you mean kitsunesoba-oriented? Or do you think all users have the same prefe

> too few Linux app developers with a user-oriented mindset By "user-oriented", do you mean kitsunesoba-oriented? Or do you think all users have the same preferences? > With a Mac I can have it set up to my liking and be working in little more than an hour. macOS doesn't even include tiling window management out of the box. Apple clearly optimizes macOS for the average user. If you're an average user, that's cool. But for people with sophisticated workflows who aren't average users, the out-of-the-box experience provided by macOS (and Windows, GNOME, etc.) may be grossly inadequate.

lloeki 8y ago
The argument that using a tiling window manager is a prerequisite of being a non-average user is a highly arrogant generalization of your use case.
- crispinb 8y ago
  There is a general rule that the more time people spend futzing with some particular aspect of their shit, the more they fetishise it. It's a kind of cognitive sunk-costs fallacy. I've used i3, and it's great. I wish something like it were available on Windows or macOS. But it's just a trivial convenience; hardly something to develop an emotional attachment to. Let's face it, humans are odd creatures and will attach to almost anything.
  - lloeki 8y ago
    IKEA effect! An example of which is those prepared doughs where you have to add eggs... the egg could (and has been at some point) be included but marketing discovered that requiring the add-your-own-egg step made people love the end product more because they somehow made it themselves. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect
    - crispinb 8y ago
      Nice - I hadn't come across that. Spot on.
    - perl4ever 8y ago
      I've heard of that before, but it always made me wonder - are we just supposed to accept unquestioningly that powdered eggs are indistinguishable from fresh? Sure, there's no question you can make something edible with dehydrated eggs, but that isn't proof there's absolutely no difference. In general, the existence of a bias is insufficient proof that you should reverse your conclusion.
  - thinkmassive 8y ago
    i3 allows the user to maximize screen real estate, and also to minimize time spent adjusting window borders and navigating with a mouse. It’s a huge time saver for anyone who learns a few simple controls. It’s like tmux on steroids. Sure it’s a convenience, but so is basically everything we do to alter a computer after unboxing it.
    - crispinb 8y ago
      I've never spent any appreciable time 'navigating with a mouse' and 'adjusting window borders' on other OSs. Sounds like those thundering imprecations that we all must use vim or emacs because IDEs require mouse use (which they don't). I agreed it's nice - but essential enough to merit the time sink of running linux? Not for me.
- mbreese 8y ago
  I have to agree. I don’t use a tiling window manager and I don’t consider myself an average user. The comment above was pretty insulting. Maybe I’m just a Luddite that doesn’t know any better, but I’ve been quite happy without tiling windows for many years. Then again, I spend most of my time in a terminal in a tmux session. Maybe that counts. A common thread here is - your use case is not my use case. Many people are assuming that their workflow is the ‘one true way’. That not a healthy way to have a discussion.
  - oneeyedpigeon 8y ago
    It might've been, but I agree with the core point: make window tiling an option. For the amount of time that it would take to implement, and the non-zero number of people that would benefit from it, it seems a glaring omission. Every OS should let you line up two windows side-by-side out of the box: this should be a minimum requirement of any window manager that lets you have windows at all.
    - lloeki 8y ago
      Full screen mode is macOS native tiling mode, you can put two windows side by side and use as much real estate as possible (no menu bar nor title bars)
      - peatmoss 8y ago
        Eh, that’s pretty darned far from an i3 or Xmonad experience. It’s roughly as wrong as saying that the Gnome frameworks are just as good as Cocoa :-)
        lloeki 8y ago
        I have used i3, awesomewm and Xmonad extensively for years so rest assured I wasn't implying anything like that ;) I was more like pointing out that macOS does allow for the following in some way out of the box: > Every OS should let you line up two windows side-by-side out of the box
- thinkmassive 8y ago
  The problem is that there is no good solution for tiling window management on OS X, even with third-party software. The parent may not have stated it that way, but you’re being over sensitive if you’re actually offended by their comment. Personally I feel like I’m using a toy when I have to use a non-tiling window manager. It may not be for everyone, but the display server or desktop environment should at least provide an interface to allow someone else to implement it.
deleted 8y ago
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lloeki 8y ago

The argument that using a tiling window manager is a prerequisite of being a non-average user is a highly arrogant generalization of your use case.

crispinb 8y ago
There is a general rule that the more time people spend futzing with some particular aspect of their shit, the more they fetishise it. It's a kind of cognitive sunk-costs fallacy. I've used i3, and it's great. I wish something like it were available on Windows or macOS. But it's just a trivial convenience; hardly something to develop an emotional attachment to. Let's face it, humans are odd creatures and will attach to almost anything.
- lloeki 8y ago
  IKEA effect! An example of which is those prepared doughs where you have to add eggs... the egg could (and has been at some point) be included but marketing discovered that requiring the add-your-own-egg step made people love the end product more because they somehow made it themselves. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect
  - crispinb 8y ago
    Nice - I hadn't come across that. Spot on.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    I've heard of that before, but it always made me wonder - are we just supposed to accept unquestioningly that powdered eggs are indistinguishable from fresh? Sure, there's no question you can make something edible with dehydrated eggs, but that isn't proof there's absolutely no difference. In general, the existence of a bias is insufficient proof that you should reverse your conclusion.
- thinkmassive 8y ago
  i3 allows the user to maximize screen real estate, and also to minimize time spent adjusting window borders and navigating with a mouse. It’s a huge time saver for anyone who learns a few simple controls. It’s like tmux on steroids. Sure it’s a convenience, but so is basically everything we do to alter a computer after unboxing it.
  - crispinb 8y ago
    I've never spent any appreciable time 'navigating with a mouse' and 'adjusting window borders' on other OSs. Sounds like those thundering imprecations that we all must use vim or emacs because IDEs require mouse use (which they don't). I agreed it's nice - but essential enough to merit the time sink of running linux? Not for me.
mbreese 8y ago
I have to agree. I don’t use a tiling window manager and I don’t consider myself an average user. The comment above was pretty insulting. Maybe I’m just a Luddite that doesn’t know any better, but I’ve been quite happy without tiling windows for many years. Then again, I spend most of my time in a terminal in a tmux session. Maybe that counts. A common thread here is - your use case is not my use case. Many people are assuming that their workflow is the ‘one true way’. That not a healthy way to have a discussion.
- oneeyedpigeon 8y ago
  It might've been, but I agree with the core point: make window tiling an option. For the amount of time that it would take to implement, and the non-zero number of people that would benefit from it, it seems a glaring omission. Every OS should let you line up two windows side-by-side out of the box: this should be a minimum requirement of any window manager that lets you have windows at all.
  - lloeki 8y ago
    Full screen mode is macOS native tiling mode, you can put two windows side by side and use as much real estate as possible (no menu bar nor title bars)
    - peatmoss 8y ago
      Eh, that’s pretty darned far from an i3 or Xmonad experience. It’s roughly as wrong as saying that the Gnome frameworks are just as good as Cocoa :-)
      - lloeki 8y ago
        I have used i3, awesomewm and Xmonad extensively for years so rest assured I wasn't implying anything like that ;) I was more like pointing out that macOS does allow for the following in some way out of the box: > Every OS should let you line up two windows side-by-side out of the box
thinkmassive 8y ago
The problem is that there is no good solution for tiling window management on OS X, even with third-party software. The parent may not have stated it that way, but you’re being over sensitive if you’re actually offended by their comment. Personally I feel like I’m using a toy when I have to use a non-tiling window manager. It may not be for everyone, but the display server or desktop environment should at least provide an interface to allow someone else to implement it.

deleted 8y ago

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