4 ms·

> We talk about Japan as if it’s dying sometimes I find this is mostly because the West can't fathom that Japan might have different values -- for example thei

by ng12 8y ago

> We talk about Japan as if it’s dying sometimes I find this is mostly because the West can't fathom that Japan might have different values -- for example their unwillingness to sacrifice cultural homogeniety on the altar of economic growth.

krapp 8y ago
>or example their unwillingness to sacrifice cultural homogeniety on the altar of economic growth. Every time I hear this argument (and it comes up in just about every thread about Japan's economy or culture) I can't help but hear an alt-right dog whistle. Because, of course, Japan has a long history of incorporating culture from elsewhere - both from their Asian neighbors and the West, but when you talk about "homogeneity" in relation to Japan, people tend to think first about ethnicity and race, since they're ~98% ethnically Japanese. And I'm not entirely certain can I see the link between "cultural homogeneity" and "economic growth" ... until I realize you're talking about immigration. Which is odd because most immigrants to Japan are Asian, and not likely to disturb their "cultural homogeneity" much, and the tiny, tiny fraction from elsewhere are definitely not likely to do so. Maybe that's just me and my cooling fan is acting up, though.
- ng12 8y ago
  I think you hearing an alt-right dog whistle is exactly the Western-centric attitude I was referring to. > Which is odd because most immigrants to Japan are Asian, and not likely to disturb their "cultural homogeneity" much If you think there's no racial tension between native Japanese and Korean/Chinese immigrants I have some news for you.
  - krapp 8y ago
    > I think you hearing an alt-right dog whistle is exactly the Western-centric attitude I was referring to. That's because the alt-right uses Japan as a proxy for its own anti-immigration and racialist views, particularly in regards to to Muslim and Eastern European immigrants. It seems to me to be a new form of Orientalism. >If you think there's no racial tension between native Japanese and Korean/Chinese immigrants I have some news for you. There definitely is, but that depends on one's definition of "race." But that tension has existed for hundreds if not thousands of years (obvious post-WW2 sentiments notwithstanding) so I don't see that contributing to the disruption of Japanese culture since it's been a constant in Japanese culture for so long.
    - ekianjo 8y ago
      > There definitely is, but that depends on one's definition of "race." Oh Japanese definitely think they are apart from their neighbors even in terms of race. YOu should read what Japanese write about themselves in History books.
- timcederman 8y ago
  Looks like you got downvoted a bit, but I heard the same dog-whistle reading this comment. ng12's comment history seems relatively reasonable, but some definite strong opinions leading in that direction - particularly around gamergate, and suggesting its fine to teach a dog to give a Nazi salute, etc.
- kypro 8y ago
  > Japan has a long history of incorporating culture from elsewhere - both from their Asian neighbours and the West, but when you talk about "homogeneity" in relation to Japan, people tend to think first about ethnicity and race, since they're ~98% ethnically Japanese. I think its strange that in the West we believe we need to import people on mass to appreciate and incorporate parts of their culture. Here in the UK for example we're often told how great our cuisine is now and how much we're benefiting culturally from immigration, but at this point I wonder how much more we stand to benefit from allowing in a few hundred thousand more people from the middle-east and whether that might actually come with a more significant cultural risk than a gain. For example, London is now the most homophobic part of the UK and Paris is now increasing anti-Semitic, and for what benefit? I think Japan is just more pragmatic on this issue. They are open to appreciating foreign culture, but they seem to understand importing people from other countries comes with significant risks and consequences. > I'm not entirely certain can I see the link between "cultural homogeneity" and "economic growth" ... until I realize you're talking about immigration. I think the point was that the immigration policies of the West have resulted in a lack of culture homogeneity. I don't think people really realise how extreme the cultural divide between immigrants and natives are in the West. The US would have elected Trump in a land slide were there no minorities, and similar is true in the UK with just 25% of minorities voting Conservative in the last election as opposed to 40%+ of Brits. This is the very real political and cultural cost of immigration that we ignore in the west to keep business happy and GDP growing. For individuals, especially the working class, it has terrible consequences. My working class father now has to compete with cheap foreign labour and I have family members who live council estates in my city where Arabic is main language. For the record, I'm not alt-right or anti-immigration, I'm a left-leaning Brit from a working class background who has seen the communities I grew up in turn in to far-right Islamic ghettos where my family have been repeatedly mugged and feel unwelcome. The middle-class immigrants I work with are completely different, by product of their success they are the ones who have integrated and are valuable members of society. But I do wish middle-class immigration loving guys would take just a second to see the pain and problems they have caused and working class and my family.
  - nfg 8y ago
    “I don't think people really realise how extreme the cultural divide between _immigrants_ and _natives_ are in the West. The US would have elected Trump in a land slide were there no _minorities_” So whites are native to the US but blacks or hispanics aren’t?
chrischen 8y ago
Actually growing up in America we were taught that America is literally the most advanced and developed nation. And having visited Mainland China a few times helped cement that belief that the rest of the world was underdeveloped... until I actually visited Japan and some other Asian places like Hong Kong. Japan is probably miles ahead of the US objectively in infrastructure (social and physical), standard of living, and societal harmony. It's sometimes hard to observe and appreciate because Western values differ from Japan in certain key areas that make it look like they are behind (overemphasis on toilet hygiene seems weird to Americans, but is really just an advanced standard of hygiene—the romans would have thought us weird using clean toilet paper instead of a communal vinegar-soaked sponge). You can't really fully absorb their advancement unless you understand their culture and why certain things are the way they are.
- fiblye 8y ago
  For me, visiting mainland China cemented my belief that the rest of the world was underdeveloped, but not for the same reasons as you. China is just going way beyond the rest of the world with their development, and outside of tiny slices of a couple major metropolitan areas in America, the US feels like it's decades behind. China's a little grimy, but the progress and infrastructure growth there is unbelievable. And toilet hygiene here in Japan is one thing that ironically lags behind America. Sure, Japan has electric toilets and people wear separate shoes to the bathroom, but I've almost never seen locals wash their hands. What I typically see is guys tap their fingertips (and I do mean just around the nail area) in water and use it to help slick their hair back after a long session in the toilet. I've even seen restaurant staff do this and it drives me crazy.
  - chrischen 8y ago
    I visited China a bit earlier than you, in the late 90s and through the 2000s. You have to realize merely in the 90s pretty much all of the skyscrapera in Shanghai’s bund sprang up. http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/06/shanghai-20-years-of-evolution.html?m=1 http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/06/shanghai-20-years-... I agree that certain parts of China have succeeded US standarss (mainly certain districts of large cities) but if you venture around their levels of development are completely uneven and there are still large swaths of China wih poor infrastructure. Tap water is still not drinkable. Re: washing hands in Japan. I’ve never observed that but maybe because they don’t have to stick their hands in their butt after using the toilet it has developed a cultural de-emphasis on hand washing? Regardless the food safety there is miles ahead of the US since you can actually eat meats raw there, including Chicken. In any case this is a perfect example of a cultural difference that masks their advancement. I don't think you can take a difference in hand washing practice and conclude that it's necessarily behind in some way. Same as how you can't conclude that their driving practices are backwards simply because they haven't advanced to the right side of the road.

by ng12 8y ago

krapp 8y ago

>or example their unwillingness to sacrifice cultural homogeniety on the altar of economic growth. Every time I hear this argument (and it comes up in just about every thread about Japan's economy or culture) I can't help but hear an alt-right dog whistle. Because, of course, Japan has a long history of incorporating culture from elsewhere - both from their Asian neighbors and the West, but when you talk about "homogeneity" in relation to Japan, people tend to think first about ethnicity and race, since they're ~98% ethnically Japanese. And I'm not entirely certain can I see the link between "cultural homogeneity" and "economic growth" ... until I realize you're talking about immigration. Which is odd because most immigrants to Japan are Asian, and not likely to disturb their "cultural homogeneity" much, and the tiny, tiny fraction from elsewhere are definitely not likely to do so. Maybe that's just me and my cooling fan is acting up, though.

ng12 8y ago
I think you hearing an alt-right dog whistle is exactly the Western-centric attitude I was referring to. > Which is odd because most immigrants to Japan are Asian, and not likely to disturb their "cultural homogeneity" much If you think there's no racial tension between native Japanese and Korean/Chinese immigrants I have some news for you.
- krapp 8y ago
  > I think you hearing an alt-right dog whistle is exactly the Western-centric attitude I was referring to. That's because the alt-right uses Japan as a proxy for its own anti-immigration and racialist views, particularly in regards to to Muslim and Eastern European immigrants. It seems to me to be a new form of Orientalism. >If you think there's no racial tension between native Japanese and Korean/Chinese immigrants I have some news for you. There definitely is, but that depends on one's definition of "race." But that tension has existed for hundreds if not thousands of years (obvious post-WW2 sentiments notwithstanding) so I don't see that contributing to the disruption of Japanese culture since it's been a constant in Japanese culture for so long.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    > There definitely is, but that depends on one's definition of "race." Oh Japanese definitely think they are apart from their neighbors even in terms of race. YOu should read what Japanese write about themselves in History books.
timcederman 8y ago
Looks like you got downvoted a bit, but I heard the same dog-whistle reading this comment. ng12's comment history seems relatively reasonable, but some definite strong opinions leading in that direction - particularly around gamergate, and suggesting its fine to teach a dog to give a Nazi salute, etc.
kypro 8y ago
> Japan has a long history of incorporating culture from elsewhere - both from their Asian neighbours and the West, but when you talk about "homogeneity" in relation to Japan, people tend to think first about ethnicity and race, since they're ~98% ethnically Japanese. I think its strange that in the West we believe we need to import people on mass to appreciate and incorporate parts of their culture. Here in the UK for example we're often told how great our cuisine is now and how much we're benefiting culturally from immigration, but at this point I wonder how much more we stand to benefit from allowing in a few hundred thousand more people from the middle-east and whether that might actually come with a more significant cultural risk than a gain. For example, London is now the most homophobic part of the UK and Paris is now increasing anti-Semitic, and for what benefit? I think Japan is just more pragmatic on this issue. They are open to appreciating foreign culture, but they seem to understand importing people from other countries comes with significant risks and consequences. > I'm not entirely certain can I see the link between "cultural homogeneity" and "economic growth" ... until I realize you're talking about immigration. I think the point was that the immigration policies of the West have resulted in a lack of culture homogeneity. I don't think people really realise how extreme the cultural divide between immigrants and natives are in the West. The US would have elected Trump in a land slide were there no minorities, and similar is true in the UK with just 25% of minorities voting Conservative in the last election as opposed to 40%+ of Brits. This is the very real political and cultural cost of immigration that we ignore in the west to keep business happy and GDP growing. For individuals, especially the working class, it has terrible consequences. My working class father now has to compete with cheap foreign labour and I have family members who live council estates in my city where Arabic is main language. For the record, I'm not alt-right or anti-immigration, I'm a left-leaning Brit from a working class background who has seen the communities I grew up in turn in to far-right Islamic ghettos where my family have been repeatedly mugged and feel unwelcome. The middle-class immigrants I work with are completely different, by product of their success they are the ones who have integrated and are valuable members of society. But I do wish middle-class immigration loving guys would take just a second to see the pain and problems they have caused and working class and my family.
- nfg 8y ago
  “I don't think people really realise how extreme the cultural divide between _immigrants_ and _natives_ are in the West. The US would have elected Trump in a land slide were there no _minorities_” So whites are native to the US but blacks or hispanics aren’t?

chrischen 8y ago

Actually growing up in America we were taught that America is literally the most advanced and developed nation. And having visited Mainland China a few times helped cement that belief that the rest of the world was underdeveloped... until I actually visited Japan and some other Asian places like Hong Kong. Japan is probably miles ahead of the US objectively in infrastructure (social and physical), standard of living, and societal harmony. It's sometimes hard to observe and appreciate because Western values differ from Japan in certain key areas that make it look like they are behind (overemphasis on toilet hygiene seems weird to Americans, but is really just an advanced standard of hygiene—the romans would have thought us weird using clean toilet paper instead of a communal vinegar-soaked sponge). You can't really fully absorb their advancement unless you understand their culture and why certain things are the way they are.

fiblye 8y ago
For me, visiting mainland China cemented my belief that the rest of the world was underdeveloped, but not for the same reasons as you. China is just going way beyond the rest of the world with their development, and outside of tiny slices of a couple major metropolitan areas in America, the US feels like it's decades behind. China's a little grimy, but the progress and infrastructure growth there is unbelievable. And toilet hygiene here in Japan is one thing that ironically lags behind America. Sure, Japan has electric toilets and people wear separate shoes to the bathroom, but I've almost never seen locals wash their hands. What I typically see is guys tap their fingertips (and I do mean just around the nail area) in water and use it to help slick their hair back after a long session in the toilet. I've even seen restaurant staff do this and it drives me crazy.
- chrischen 8y ago
  I visited China a bit earlier than you, in the late 90s and through the 2000s. You have to realize merely in the 90s pretty much all of the skyscrapera in Shanghai’s bund sprang up. http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/06/shanghai-20-years-of-evolution.html?m=1 http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/06/shanghai-20-years-... I agree that certain parts of China have succeeded US standarss (mainly certain districts of large cities) but if you venture around their levels of development are completely uneven and there are still large swaths of China wih poor infrastructure. Tap water is still not drinkable. Re: washing hands in Japan. I’ve never observed that but maybe because they don’t have to stick their hands in their butt after using the toilet it has developed a cultural de-emphasis on hand washing? Regardless the food safety there is miles ahead of the US since you can actually eat meats raw there, including Chicken. In any case this is a perfect example of a cultural difference that masks their advancement. I don't think you can take a difference in hand washing practice and conclude that it's necessarily behind in some way. Same as how you can't conclude that their driving practices are backwards simply because they haven't advanced to the right side of the road.