5 ms·

I think you hit the nail on the head. I would also add that the whole minefield of communicating with someone of the opposite sex, especially if you are a man.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I would also add that the whole minefield of communicating with someone of the opposite sex, especially if you are a man. It seems that you have a high risk of being called up for harassment if you want to start a friendly conversation with a female as a male for example. This is a direct consequence of the whole metoo thing. Over the last 15 years, society has been more and more strict into defining what is an acceptable social behavior. You are supposed to stay in your lane and not talk to anyone basically, except in accepted places like a bar, sometimes. I think in 20 years nobody will talk openly on the streets. All the interactions will take place in well defined "apps" or in defined places like a bar. Everything outside that will be looked down as weird. This is already half happening with dating. You have a higher risk of creating an incident in real life so everyone is now using well defined dating apps with a well defined flow and a well defined experience. The world is becoming more and more tasteless. Everything has to take place into well defined boundaries.

callandreturn 8y ago
Hm. As a woman, I can't say I've ever thought of harassment when men have started friendly conversation with me. Is that not a bit of an exaggeration? If a man catcalled "nice tits" or something, then yeah, that would be harassment. But conversation? Not nearly the risk your describing, I don't think.
- ironjunkie 8y ago
  I agree with you, but I think people avoid even the possibility//higher risk associated with the awkward start of the conversation. I work in tech and some of my male coworkers privately tell me that they avoid talking to womens they don't know at networking events or at conferences because of the way it might be interpreted nowadays.
  - callandreturn 8y ago
    I think there's a difference between initial awkwardness or fear of rejection -- which are totally valid feelings in social interaction, and not just limited to men -- and fear of being accused of harassment for making polite conversation. I also think that it's easy to get sucked into circle-jerks that promote and exaggerate these fears of being accused of harassment. As long as you're considerate and respectful, no reasonable person would think you're harassing them. There are always unreasonable people, that shouldn't divide us into men vs women, into groups that fear interacting with each other.
- pixelperfect 8y ago
  Most women would not consider such an ordinary social interaction to be harassment, but suppose a small fraction do - being perceived or accused of harassment is such a negative thing that it can be a strong deterrent even if there's a low chance of it actually happening.
  - callandreturn 8y ago
    My following reply to ironjunkie is a reply to your comment as well -- I think what you said would be such a shame.
  - s-shellfish 8y ago
    Most men aren't psychopaths, but a small fraction are. Perceiving all men as such even if there's a low chance of it actually happening...
    - jplayer01 8y ago
      If you're accused of harassment as a guy, that has huge negative social and career effects that are close to impossible to fight. Everybody turns against you and you're ostracized from your community. It's a big deal.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - s-shellfish 8y ago
        Of course it's a big deal. I never disagreed with that to begin with. Some people understand ostracism. That's why they don't do the things that cause ostracism.
PopsiclePete 8y ago
>I would also add that the whole minefield of communicating with someone of the opposite sex, especially if you are a man. It seems that you have a high risk of being called up for harassment if you want to start a friendly conversation with a female as a male for example. This is a direct consequence of the whole metoo thing. Wow. I'm married now, but I used to date and approach women non-stop. Non-stop. Not once did I ever feel that I was somehow in danger of being accused of harassment - but that's probably, well, because I wasn't being harass-y and creepy. I really don't know where this "Look at me, I'm a man, poor little me!" victimhood is coming from recently, but it's definitely on the increase since Trump won. Suddenly, if people like you are to be believed, men are a persecuted, deprived caste of wretches and pariahs who are denied their basic human rights by militant feminists. It's b.s., quite frankly. Don't be Harvey Weinstein, be respectful, and, well - normal - and you'll be fine.
- ironjunkie 8y ago
  Lots of assumptions in your post. Being a victim here was not claimed at all. The discussion here is related to why people are feeling more lonely. And I believe that the boundaries of socially acceptable man-women interactions (amongst others) really shrunk over the last decades, yes. I also used to approach women non-stop (as you would put it). I simply do it less nowadays because I'm aware of the higher risks associated with it. This has nothing to do with being a victim. It is a loss for everyone, and simply a shift to more "streamlined" ways to meet people such as "apps" that remove all the surprise and risks from the interaction. On a side note, Why does this discussions HAS to yet again go to a Feminist vs Trump view of the world.
- furi 8y ago
  I've said this on here before more or less, but here's the problem for me: If my girlfriend is approached by a man without due cause (such as asking for directions, trying to commission her to work on something, etc.), our immediate reaction is to assume he has sexual intent. The only difference being creepy makes is whether or not it's an assumption or a certainty. I don't like being perceived as though I have sexual intent and I don't get the impression anybody else does either or romantic cat and mouse games wouldn't be as popular as they are. This isn't some hypothetical worst case false accusation thing, it's something real that I know happens because we both do it. And I know why we do it, we do it because 9/10 times if a guy approaches her without due cause he's got sexual intent. When you approach a woman without due cause you join a tiny segment of the population that is 90% horny men, expecting to not get labelled as a horny man is wishful thinking.
jetblackio 8y ago
If you find this to be the case, then maybe you’re not being as polite / kind as you think. Because from my experience this simple is not the case. I’ve seen this argument made a few times and it’s pretty rubbish. You are free to talk to anyone of any sex if you treat them kindly, politely and with respect.

callandreturn 8y ago

Hm. As a woman, I can't say I've ever thought of harassment when men have started friendly conversation with me. Is that not a bit of an exaggeration? If a man catcalled "nice tits" or something, then yeah, that would be harassment. But conversation? Not nearly the risk your describing, I don't think.

ironjunkie 8y ago
I agree with you, but I think people avoid even the possibility//higher risk associated with the awkward start of the conversation. I work in tech and some of my male coworkers privately tell me that they avoid talking to womens they don't know at networking events or at conferences because of the way it might be interpreted nowadays.
- callandreturn 8y ago
  I think there's a difference between initial awkwardness or fear of rejection -- which are totally valid feelings in social interaction, and not just limited to men -- and fear of being accused of harassment for making polite conversation. I also think that it's easy to get sucked into circle-jerks that promote and exaggerate these fears of being accused of harassment. As long as you're considerate and respectful, no reasonable person would think you're harassing them. There are always unreasonable people, that shouldn't divide us into men vs women, into groups that fear interacting with each other.
pixelperfect 8y ago
Most women would not consider such an ordinary social interaction to be harassment, but suppose a small fraction do - being perceived or accused of harassment is such a negative thing that it can be a strong deterrent even if there's a low chance of it actually happening.
- callandreturn 8y ago
  My following reply to ironjunkie is a reply to your comment as well -- I think what you said would be such a shame.
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  Most men aren't psychopaths, but a small fraction are. Perceiving all men as such even if there's a low chance of it actually happening...
  - jplayer01 8y ago
    If you're accused of harassment as a guy, that has huge negative social and career effects that are close to impossible to fight. Everybody turns against you and you're ostracized from your community. It's a big deal.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - s-shellfish 8y ago
      Of course it's a big deal. I never disagreed with that to begin with. Some people understand ostracism. That's why they don't do the things that cause ostracism.

PopsiclePete 8y ago

>I would also add that the whole minefield of communicating with someone of the opposite sex, especially if you are a man. It seems that you have a high risk of being called up for harassment if you want to start a friendly conversation with a female as a male for example. This is a direct consequence of the whole metoo thing. Wow. I'm married now, but I used to date and approach women non-stop. Non-stop. Not once did I ever feel that I was somehow in danger of being accused of harassment - but that's probably, well, because I wasn't being harass-y and creepy. I really don't know where this "Look at me, I'm a man, poor little me!" victimhood is coming from recently, but it's definitely on the increase since Trump won. Suddenly, if people like you are to be believed, men are a persecuted, deprived caste of wretches and pariahs who are denied their basic human rights by militant feminists. It's b.s., quite frankly. Don't be Harvey Weinstein, be respectful, and, well - normal - and you'll be fine.

ironjunkie 8y ago
Lots of assumptions in your post. Being a victim here was not claimed at all. The discussion here is related to why people are feeling more lonely. And I believe that the boundaries of socially acceptable man-women interactions (amongst others) really shrunk over the last decades, yes. I also used to approach women non-stop (as you would put it). I simply do it less nowadays because I'm aware of the higher risks associated with it. This has nothing to do with being a victim. It is a loss for everyone, and simply a shift to more "streamlined" ways to meet people such as "apps" that remove all the surprise and risks from the interaction. On a side note, Why does this discussions HAS to yet again go to a Feminist vs Trump view of the world.
furi 8y ago
I've said this on here before more or less, but here's the problem for me: If my girlfriend is approached by a man without due cause (such as asking for directions, trying to commission her to work on something, etc.), our immediate reaction is to assume he has sexual intent. The only difference being creepy makes is whether or not it's an assumption or a certainty. I don't like being perceived as though I have sexual intent and I don't get the impression anybody else does either or romantic cat and mouse games wouldn't be as popular as they are. This isn't some hypothetical worst case false accusation thing, it's something real that I know happens because we both do it. And I know why we do it, we do it because 9/10 times if a guy approaches her without due cause he's got sexual intent. When you approach a woman without due cause you join a tiny segment of the population that is 90% horny men, expecting to not get labelled as a horny man is wishful thinking.

jetblackio 8y ago

If you find this to be the case, then maybe you’re not being as polite / kind as you think. Because from my experience this simple is not the case. I’ve seen this argument made a few times and it’s pretty rubbish. You are free to talk to anyone of any sex if you treat them kindly, politely and with respect.