22 ms·

Incredible how the subtext here is "loneliness requires healthcare" rather than, say, "loneliness requires coordinated social change". Almost as if the goal is

Incredible how the subtext here is "loneliness requires healthcare" rather than, say, "loneliness requires coordinated social change". Almost as if the goal is "how can we frame loneliness as an illness and reap some sweet insurance money."

bertjk 8y ago
I kind of agree with you, but what does positive "coordinated social change" look like? I can only think of negative ones, like those that occurred with radical political changes, or else explicit/thinly-veiled marketing campaigns for consumer goods..
- sp332 8y ago
  Well, we wash our hands a lot more often now than we did before the germ theory of disease caught on.
- Nav_Panel 8y ago
  That's a great question and I've been trying to figure it out myself for a while. I oscillate between "technology has given us new ways to connect and we just need to leverage them" and "technology broke our existing coordination mechanisms and replaced them with something fundamentally worse for human well-being." I do think a backlash is already underway against Facebook, at least. This is a step in the right direction, as social media seems to intensity loneliness. The internet can be a tool for community-building -- I see other comments mentioning meetup.com, and I've met many people through Twitter and other online social channels -- but none of the solutions (by my estimation) seem quite there yet in terms of helping people find groups that might suit them and providing a means for keeping people together long-term. I actually think the most important solutions rest primarily in land use. The "new urbanism" ideas of walkability and mixed-use buildings seem to encourage more casual interactions (which ultimately becomes deeper interaction over time) as people live their lives. On the other hand, I live in Manhattan and I'm still lonely. It's hard to say what will work.
- opnitro 8y ago
  Radical political changes were universally negative? Many of those radical movements had extremely positive effects, such as labor laws and civil rights. These movements were radical partially because of the tremendous material support in keeping the status quo.
- 1auralynn 8y ago
  Redesigning neighborhoods to be walkable not driveable. Rezoning so that more businesses can open near residential areas, so people can walk or bike to work, walk to get groceries, etc. More people around leads to more serendipitous interactions, maybe improved safety. I guess that's not really coordinated social change, but I think tweaks to the context in which we live can have huge, positive social impacts.
  - chiefofgxbxl 8y ago
    There's a nice virtue to this, also. Build walkable and bike-able places and you're building public spaces to be shared. If you only embrace a car-driven model of development, "public" spaces are to be competed for (e.g. you stole my parking spot, you cut me off, you're in front of me driving too slowly, etc.)
  - mjevans 8y ago
    Stop focusing on the negative. "Redesigning neighborhoods to be walkable." Full stop. In my opinion this includes /planning/ for Parking to have it's own space, preferably /under/ everything. (You don't have to dig down, it's an option build up to begin with!) Also, relegate /any/ smoking to only designated shelters with negative draw and scrubbed exhausts. It should be a 1 day's pay fine + 4 days of community service for a violation.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    If you move to an area like this right now, you’ll find that the “serendipity” is just people asking you for money.
sp332 8y ago
Public health crises require coordinated social change.
- Nav_Panel 8y ago
  Indeed, but is loneliness primarily a health concern?
  - sp332 8y ago
    Yeah, suicides are climbing, up 50% since 1999. It's the #2 cause of death of people between 10-34. https://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_age_group_2016_1056w814h.gif https://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_o...
    - Nav_Panel 8y ago
      To rephrase my question: is preventing suicide the primary reason why we should address loneliness?
      - sp332 8y ago
        I mean, loneliness also sucks? So that's one reason. Also there's evidence that it reduces life expectancy overall https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/does-loneliness-affect-life-span/2015/03/30/b5d112c6-d3ea-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/does-... But why do we need to pick a primary reason?
- claydavisss 8y ago
  Go watch the movie The Godfather. Find the part where Don Corleone slaps a crying Johnny Fontaine across the face and yells: "You could be a man!" Watch this as many times as you need to. In the nineteenth century, teenagers were trekking across the continent with young wives and children in tow. Look at where we have arrived: mewling man-children. Go join the Marines.
rifung 8y ago
I didn't interpret it that way at all. Considering the health issues caused by loneliness, it makes sense to me that doctors would want to do something about it, and what can they do but provide medical solutions?
- quxbar 8y ago
  I see it as the opposite - medical intervention is a last resort for doctors the way changing the codebase is a last resort for programmers.
mjevans 8y ago
coordinate social change - Maybe worker rights and regulation of basic needs items by supply side economics? Imagine if workers had actual careers, that didn't bounce them from city to city (unless they wanted to relocate). How about if housing had minimum codes that encouraged actual privacy. (Such as being able to take a shower or do the dishes at 2AM without anyone around you hearing anything; also to doing them at 10PM without waking morning people and at 8AM without waking night people.) Also if 'rent control' / housing cost control meant that if the market were over a given price more housing would be built in that market to drive the price down properly. Housing also should not be an investment, that encourages poor behavior in all sorts of ways.

bertjk 8y ago

I kind of agree with you, but what does positive "coordinated social change" look like? I can only think of negative ones, like those that occurred with radical political changes, or else explicit/thinly-veiled marketing campaigns for consumer goods..

sp332 8y ago
Well, we wash our hands a lot more often now than we did before the germ theory of disease caught on.
Nav_Panel 8y ago
That's a great question and I've been trying to figure it out myself for a while. I oscillate between "technology has given us new ways to connect and we just need to leverage them" and "technology broke our existing coordination mechanisms and replaced them with something fundamentally worse for human well-being." I do think a backlash is already underway against Facebook, at least. This is a step in the right direction, as social media seems to intensity loneliness. The internet can be a tool for community-building -- I see other comments mentioning meetup.com, and I've met many people through Twitter and other online social channels -- but none of the solutions (by my estimation) seem quite there yet in terms of helping people find groups that might suit them and providing a means for keeping people together long-term. I actually think the most important solutions rest primarily in land use. The "new urbanism" ideas of walkability and mixed-use buildings seem to encourage more casual interactions (which ultimately becomes deeper interaction over time) as people live their lives. On the other hand, I live in Manhattan and I'm still lonely. It's hard to say what will work.
opnitro 8y ago
Radical political changes were universally negative? Many of those radical movements had extremely positive effects, such as labor laws and civil rights. These movements were radical partially because of the tremendous material support in keeping the status quo.
1auralynn 8y ago
Redesigning neighborhoods to be walkable not driveable. Rezoning so that more businesses can open near residential areas, so people can walk or bike to work, walk to get groceries, etc. More people around leads to more serendipitous interactions, maybe improved safety. I guess that's not really coordinated social change, but I think tweaks to the context in which we live can have huge, positive social impacts.
- chiefofgxbxl 8y ago
  There's a nice virtue to this, also. Build walkable and bike-able places and you're building public spaces to be shared. If you only embrace a car-driven model of development, "public" spaces are to be competed for (e.g. you stole my parking spot, you cut me off, you're in front of me driving too slowly, etc.)
- mjevans 8y ago
  Stop focusing on the negative. "Redesigning neighborhoods to be walkable." Full stop. In my opinion this includes /planning/ for Parking to have it's own space, preferably /under/ everything. (You don't have to dig down, it's an option build up to begin with!) Also, relegate /any/ smoking to only designated shelters with negative draw and scrubbed exhausts. It should be a 1 day's pay fine + 4 days of community service for a violation.
- closeparen 8y ago
  If you move to an area like this right now, you’ll find that the “serendipity” is just people asking you for money.

sp332 8y ago

Public health crises require coordinated social change.

Nav_Panel 8y ago
Indeed, but is loneliness primarily a health concern?
- sp332 8y ago
  Yeah, suicides are climbing, up 50% since 1999. It's the #2 cause of death of people between 10-34. https://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_age_group_2016_1056w814h.gif https://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_o...
  - Nav_Panel 8y ago
    To rephrase my question: is preventing suicide the primary reason why we should address loneliness?
    - sp332 8y ago
      I mean, loneliness also sucks? So that's one reason. Also there's evidence that it reduces life expectancy overall https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/does-loneliness-affect-life-span/2015/03/30/b5d112c6-d3ea-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/does-... But why do we need to pick a primary reason?
claydavisss 8y ago
Go watch the movie The Godfather. Find the part where Don Corleone slaps a crying Johnny Fontaine across the face and yells: "You could be a man!" Watch this as many times as you need to. In the nineteenth century, teenagers were trekking across the continent with young wives and children in tow. Look at where we have arrived: mewling man-children. Go join the Marines.

rifung 8y ago

I didn't interpret it that way at all. Considering the health issues caused by loneliness, it makes sense to me that doctors would want to do something about it, and what can they do but provide medical solutions?

quxbar 8y ago
I see it as the opposite - medical intervention is a last resort for doctors the way changing the codebase is a last resort for programmers.

mjevans 8y ago

coordinate social change - Maybe worker rights and regulation of basic needs items by supply side economics? Imagine if workers had actual careers, that didn't bounce them from city to city (unless they wanted to relocate). How about if housing had minimum codes that encouraged actual privacy. (Such as being able to take a shower or do the dishes at 2AM without anyone around you hearing anything; also to doing them at 10PM without waking morning people and at 8AM without waking night people.) Also if 'rent control' / housing cost control meant that if the market were over a given price more housing would be built in that market to drive the price down properly. Housing also should not be an investment, that encourages poor behavior in all sorts of ways.