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>*"Now companies can pollute to their heart's content and make it our failure and their externality." Not that I disagree with your overall sentiment, but are

>*"Now companies can pollute to their heart's content and make it our failure and their externality." Not that I disagree with your overall sentiment, but are you suggesting that it's not my responsibility to throw garbage into a trash can?

pkhagah 8y ago
It's not just about throwing garbage into trash can. The main question is about how much of garbage is being recycled? And who will pay for the recycling if you mandate 5 different types of garbage and mandate maximum possible recycling? Many of the European countries have major focus on percentage of garbage being recycled. Some countries even reached 70% or so and have plans to increase it even further.
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
  Again, I don't disagree with anything you are saying here, it just seemed you were implying before that corporations hold some kind of responsibility to ensure trash doesn't end up on the ground. When in my (limited) experience, 99% of trash on the ground is from the public, while 99% of pollution of the water ways (edit: and landfills) is from corporations/industry/government. (1% being the exceptions, and these being made up numbers anyways...)
  - RobertRoberts 8y ago
    Edit: above comment was a sent to wrong post...
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Not at all, but human nature being what it is, I would like systemic solutions that personal responsibility can be a constituent part of. Not to discover the body putting out advertisements to keep the place tidy and care for the environment are also a lobby group formed to prevent legislation impacting manufacturers in that area. Makes me wonder about the history of the UK equivalent! If the trash can't be easily recycled or is excessive that's a manufacturer problem even if it all ends up in the correct bin. If reuse and deposit schemes would help that's a manufacturer or legislative problem. So it goes on. I'd even argue that takeaways and franchises have partial responsibility for trash around their outlets. Produce less, with less impactful materials. After all the customer wanted a burger or coffee not a selection of impossible to recycle junk. One of those groups is going to some lengths to avoid their responsibilities. The other, on the whole, is trying or is required via kerbside collections from their homes. On windy days kerbside collections in these parts don't pick up all the blown away plastic. That should be their responsibility too. Presumably my local authority didn't specify that adequately in the outsourcing contract - though it shouldn't be necessary. As is, it looks like we've landed most of the responsibility on those least able to do anything about it.
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
  I accidentally replied to a different commenter thinking it was your reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17680544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17680544
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    > just seemed you were implying before that corporations hold some kind of responsibility to ensure trash doesn't end up on the ground I'd argue they do, or at least should. As do we, the end customer. No law, advertising campaign or regulation has yet achieved 100% compliance. It's the responsibility of producers and retailers to realise, or be forced to realise, that in selling to humans some portion of their trash will be disposed of lazily or inconsiderately and mistakes will be made. They made it, they cannot be absolved of all responsibility the moment it's handed to the customer. Particularly when the quantity created is ever increasing and producers seem ever more inclined to single use plastic - because for them it is consequence-free. There's an army of psychologists employed trying to create need or desire where there was none, or encouraging further sales. How might they nudge a real improvement in trash disposal? Maybe a 25p or $1 deposit on a bottle or container would be a good start. Maybe we'd want to require benign and decomposing materials knowing full well we're over-evolved apes that would once harmlessly drop the banana peel or chicken bone wherever we finished with it. Responding to a straw ban with a sippy-cup lid that uses more plastic (hello Starbucks) is taking the piss and ignoring all the now well known public concerns. If there were any natural justice that should result in a business-threatening boycott and draconian legislation in response. Whether the straw ban was well intentioned but misguided is a separate conversation.
delecti 8y ago
Consumers have less power to reduce resource usage than companies. When companies put the burden on consumers it's a bit of a farce. There's only so much power the average consumer has to choose brands that are more ecologically friendly.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- schiffern 8y ago
  As long as we self-identify as "consumers," and believe our only lever for change is to "choose brands," we will have no power whatsoever.
schiffern 8y ago
> are you suggesting that it's not my responsibility to throw garbage into a trash can? They're suggesting the idea that it's solely the individual's responsibility was invented and promoted (for obvious reasons) by companies that manufacture disposable products, starting in the 1960s.[1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20050401192355/http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/21651/ https://web.archive.org/web/20050401192355/http://www.altern... (archive to fix formatting)

pkhagah 8y ago

It's not just about throwing garbage into trash can. The main question is about how much of garbage is being recycled? And who will pay for the recycling if you mandate 5 different types of garbage and mandate maximum possible recycling? Many of the European countries have major focus on percentage of garbage being recycled. Some countries even reached 70% or so and have plans to increase it even further.

RobertRoberts 8y ago
Again, I don't disagree with anything you are saying here, it just seemed you were implying before that corporations hold some kind of responsibility to ensure trash doesn't end up on the ground. When in my (limited) experience, 99% of trash on the ground is from the public, while 99% of pollution of the water ways (edit: and landfills) is from corporations/industry/government. (1% being the exceptions, and these being made up numbers anyways...)
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
  Edit: above comment was a sent to wrong post...

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Not at all, but human nature being what it is, I would like systemic solutions that personal responsibility can be a constituent part of. Not to discover the body putting out advertisements to keep the place tidy and care for the environment are also a lobby group formed to prevent legislation impacting manufacturers in that area. Makes me wonder about the history of the UK equivalent! If the trash can't be easily recycled or is excessive that's a manufacturer problem even if it all ends up in the correct bin. If reuse and deposit schemes would help that's a manufacturer or legislative problem. So it goes on. I'd even argue that takeaways and franchises have partial responsibility for trash around their outlets. Produce less, with less impactful materials. After all the customer wanted a burger or coffee not a selection of impossible to recycle junk. One of those groups is going to some lengths to avoid their responsibilities. The other, on the whole, is trying or is required via kerbside collections from their homes. On windy days kerbside collections in these parts don't pick up all the blown away plastic. That should be their responsibility too. Presumably my local authority didn't specify that adequately in the outsourcing contract - though it shouldn't be necessary. As is, it looks like we've landed most of the responsibility on those least able to do anything about it.

RobertRoberts 8y ago
I accidentally replied to a different commenter thinking it was your reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17680544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17680544
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  > just seemed you were implying before that corporations hold some kind of responsibility to ensure trash doesn't end up on the ground I'd argue they do, or at least should. As do we, the end customer. No law, advertising campaign or regulation has yet achieved 100% compliance. It's the responsibility of producers and retailers to realise, or be forced to realise, that in selling to humans some portion of their trash will be disposed of lazily or inconsiderately and mistakes will be made. They made it, they cannot be absolved of all responsibility the moment it's handed to the customer. Particularly when the quantity created is ever increasing and producers seem ever more inclined to single use plastic - because for them it is consequence-free. There's an army of psychologists employed trying to create need or desire where there was none, or encouraging further sales. How might they nudge a real improvement in trash disposal? Maybe a 25p or $1 deposit on a bottle or container would be a good start. Maybe we'd want to require benign and decomposing materials knowing full well we're over-evolved apes that would once harmlessly drop the banana peel or chicken bone wherever we finished with it. Responding to a straw ban with a sippy-cup lid that uses more plastic (hello Starbucks) is taking the piss and ignoring all the now well known public concerns. If there were any natural justice that should result in a business-threatening boycott and draconian legislation in response. Whether the straw ban was well intentioned but misguided is a separate conversation.

delecti 8y ago

Consumers have less power to reduce resource usage than companies. When companies put the burden on consumers it's a bit of a farce. There's only so much power the average consumer has to choose brands that are more ecologically friendly.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
schiffern 8y ago
As long as we self-identify as "consumers," and believe our only lever for change is to "choose brands," we will have no power whatsoever.

schiffern 8y ago

> are you suggesting that it's not my responsibility to throw garbage into a trash can? They're suggesting the idea that it's solely the individual's responsibility was invented and promoted (for obvious reasons) by companies that manufacture disposable products, starting in the 1960s.[1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20050401192355/http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/21651/ https://web.archive.org/web/20050401192355/http://www.altern... (archive to fix formatting)