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KalHolmann's post about Philip Cross' conflict of interest was posted on 18 May 2018 on the Wikipedia Administrators' noticeboard. It ended with the following p

by k1m 8y ago

KalHolmann's post about Philip Cross' conflict of interest was posted on 18 May 2018 on the Wikipedia Administrators' noticeboard. It ended with the following proposal: > I request that Philip Cross be topic banned from editing George Galloway and the other "goons" with whom he is at war—Matthew Gordon Banks, Craig Murray, Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, Tim Hayward (academic), Piers Robinson, and Media Lens— all of whose Wikipedia pages Cross has frequently edited. KalHolmann (talk) 21:04, 18 May 2018 (UTC) Five minutes after posting that, your acquintance Wikipedia admin Guy rejected it, as he'd done the previous attempt (also within minutes). https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&direction=next&oldid=841905271#User:Philip_Cross_has_COI https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Adminis... As it turns out, two months later, the arbitration committee essentially ruled agreeing with his initial request (and in fact broadening the ban to all of post-1978 British politics). So your claim that he was "producing more heat than light" is nonsensical.

Kim_Bruning 8y ago
Be that as it may initially; ultimately JzG relented, opened an Arbcom case, and explicitly invited KalHolmann to put forward their position. One of KalHolmann's key actions in response was to seek to be removed from the case entirely! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/BLP_issues_on_British_politics_articles/Workshop#Remove_KalHolmann_as_party_to_this_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests... Do you deny that this happened? Would you put forward the position that KalHolmann changed his mind later? Or (checking the record) do you see that mostly other people took over and examined the case instead?
- Kim_Bruning 8y ago
  -- seeing your other comments, I do see some timeline issues in the above statement which I need to doublecheck. (+edit): Ah, here's the first statement by KalHolmann on 26 may, which is a bit more ambiguous. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=prev&oldid=843054921 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitra... It could just be that KalHolmann isn't sure of their footing: It's still not the most brilliant of openings in building a case against Philip Cross of course. I was disappointed.
  - k1m 8y ago
    I can't speak for Kal, but if you examine his actions from the start (I quoted his 18 May 2018 post, which precedes the one you linked, here it is again https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&direction=next&oldid=841905271#User:Philip_Cross_has_COI https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Adminis...) it appears he simply wanted to notify the community of Philip Cross' conflict of interest and to suggest a topic ban to prevent Cross from editing pages of people he had a conflict of interest with. There is nothing to indicate he wanted to open an arbitration case, nor be party to one. So that all occurred because of Guy (JzG) who after blocking all of Kal's attempts to start a discussion about this, finally started one himself in which he misrepresented the issue (by making the whole dispute to be about Galloway) and falsely accused Kal of being a supporter of Galloway, among other baseless accusations. In light of that, Kal Holmann's statement which you linked above makes perfect sense. He was dragged into an arbitration dispute by a Wikipedia admin (Guy/JzG) who you seem very keen to defend, and then posted a statement denying the accusations levelled against him. Wikipedia arbitrators end up punishing Kal but say not a word about Guy/JzG's actions.
    - Kim_Bruning 8y ago
      Well, if Philip Cross's alleged conflict of interest were to be examined and dealt with, ultimately it would need to be looked at by the arbitration committee. Once you understand that, other things start falling into place. JzG changed tack because I poked them and pointed them at your story. JzG went back to admin's noticeboard to gather further input, and people confirmed that an Arbcom case would indeed have merit. At that point, the Arbcom case became inevitable. Now, as an honorable human being, you can't go and start something, and then when it happens turn around and get cold feet. I'm a bit disappointed in KalHolmann because they ran away when things Got Interesting. I'm also disappointed in you because your stories turned out to actually not be as well researched as they seemed at first blush. I now regret my own part in this :-/
      - k1m 8y ago
        > Well, if Philip Cross's alleged conflict of interest were to be examined and dealt with, ultimately it would need to be looked at by the arbitration committee. Once you understand that, other things start falling into place. Not true. The community is more than able to reach a decision without arbitrators. As was done when they voted to topic ban him from George Galloway. > JzG changed tack because I poked them and pointed them at your story. That doesn't excuse or explain his shutting down of Kal Holmann's initial report of conflict of interest - there was plenty in there deserving of discussion whether one looked at our story or not. And part of Guy/JzG's 'changing tack' was to misrepresent the issue by making it out to be a dispute mainly between Philip Cross and George Galloway, confusing other editors in the process. Something that the arbitrators also failed to comment on in their decision, but appeared to be aware of because they re-titled his arbitration case from "George Galloway" to "BLP issues on British politics articles" and later expanded the scope of the ban even more to "post-1978 British politics". Quite a jump from Guy's preferred focus of just Geroge Galloway. > Now, as an honorable human being, you can't go and start something, and then when it happens turn around and get cold feet. You're not making sense. Earlier you wrote "KalHolmann...was also not the person who brought the arbitration case." So why are you now saying he started it and then got cold feet? The fact is he didn't start it. Guy/JzG requested it and dragged him into it with false accusations. I started to participate in the evidence phase of the arbitration case myself and was alarmed at the way the arbitrators were treating Kal so I withdrew too. The rest of the evidence we published on our own site. I won't rehash what I've already said in my other replies to you here regarding this, they're easy enought to find. You seem determined to misrepresent this story without providing any useful evidence. Bit rich to be accusing us of "cherry picking".

by k1m 8y ago

Kim_Bruning 8y ago

Be that as it may initially; ultimately JzG relented, opened an Arbcom case, and explicitly invited KalHolmann to put forward their position. One of KalHolmann's key actions in response was to seek to be removed from the case entirely! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/BLP_issues_on_British_politics_articles/Workshop#Remove_KalHolmann_as_party_to_this_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests... Do you deny that this happened? Would you put forward the position that KalHolmann changed his mind later? Or (checking the record) do you see that mostly other people took over and examined the case instead?

Kim_Bruning 8y ago
-- seeing your other comments, I do see some timeline issues in the above statement which I need to doublecheck. (+edit): Ah, here's the first statement by KalHolmann on 26 may, which is a bit more ambiguous. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=prev&oldid=843054921 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitra... It could just be that KalHolmann isn't sure of their footing: It's still not the most brilliant of openings in building a case against Philip Cross of course. I was disappointed.
- k1m 8y ago
  I can't speak for Kal, but if you examine his actions from the start (I quoted his 18 May 2018 post, which precedes the one you linked, here it is again https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&direction=next&oldid=841905271#User:Philip_Cross_has_COI https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Adminis...) it appears he simply wanted to notify the community of Philip Cross' conflict of interest and to suggest a topic ban to prevent Cross from editing pages of people he had a conflict of interest with. There is nothing to indicate he wanted to open an arbitration case, nor be party to one. So that all occurred because of Guy (JzG) who after blocking all of Kal's attempts to start a discussion about this, finally started one himself in which he misrepresented the issue (by making the whole dispute to be about Galloway) and falsely accused Kal of being a supporter of Galloway, among other baseless accusations. In light of that, Kal Holmann's statement which you linked above makes perfect sense. He was dragged into an arbitration dispute by a Wikipedia admin (Guy/JzG) who you seem very keen to defend, and then posted a statement denying the accusations levelled against him. Wikipedia arbitrators end up punishing Kal but say not a word about Guy/JzG's actions.
  - Kim_Bruning 8y ago
    Well, if Philip Cross's alleged conflict of interest were to be examined and dealt with, ultimately it would need to be looked at by the arbitration committee. Once you understand that, other things start falling into place. JzG changed tack because I poked them and pointed them at your story. JzG went back to admin's noticeboard to gather further input, and people confirmed that an Arbcom case would indeed have merit. At that point, the Arbcom case became inevitable. Now, as an honorable human being, you can't go and start something, and then when it happens turn around and get cold feet. I'm a bit disappointed in KalHolmann because they ran away when things Got Interesting. I'm also disappointed in you because your stories turned out to actually not be as well researched as they seemed at first blush. I now regret my own part in this :-/
    - k1m 8y ago
      > Well, if Philip Cross's alleged conflict of interest were to be examined and dealt with, ultimately it would need to be looked at by the arbitration committee. Once you understand that, other things start falling into place. Not true. The community is more than able to reach a decision without arbitrators. As was done when they voted to topic ban him from George Galloway. > JzG changed tack because I poked them and pointed them at your story. That doesn't excuse or explain his shutting down of Kal Holmann's initial report of conflict of interest - there was plenty in there deserving of discussion whether one looked at our story or not. And part of Guy/JzG's 'changing tack' was to misrepresent the issue by making it out to be a dispute mainly between Philip Cross and George Galloway, confusing other editors in the process. Something that the arbitrators also failed to comment on in their decision, but appeared to be aware of because they re-titled his arbitration case from "George Galloway" to "BLP issues on British politics articles" and later expanded the scope of the ban even more to "post-1978 British politics". Quite a jump from Guy's preferred focus of just Geroge Galloway. > Now, as an honorable human being, you can't go and start something, and then when it happens turn around and get cold feet. You're not making sense. Earlier you wrote "KalHolmann...was also not the person who brought the arbitration case." So why are you now saying he started it and then got cold feet? The fact is he didn't start it. Guy/JzG requested it and dragged him into it with false accusations. I started to participate in the evidence phase of the arbitration case myself and was alarmed at the way the arbitrators were treating Kal so I withdrew too. The rest of the evidence we published on our own site. I won't rehash what I've already said in my other replies to you here regarding this, they're easy enought to find. You seem determined to misrepresent this story without providing any useful evidence. Bit rich to be accusing us of "cherry picking".