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India has banned single-use plastics (starting 2022). https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/single-use-plastic-ban-india_us_5b3a09b6e4b0f3c221a28a07 https://www

India has banned single-use plastics (starting 2022). https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/single-use-plastic-ban-india_us_5b3a09b6e4b0f3c221a28a07 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/single-use-plastic-ban-... Other countries simply need to do the same. France has banned certain single-use plastic items starting in 2020. If a side-effect is less processed food and fast-food being consumed, then great.

jakobegger 8y ago
This is the only real solution. Everything else is pointless. As long as we keep producing plastics, they will end up in the environment, and whatever doesn't will be a pain to recycle. We already have alternatives for almost everything. We have single use plates and cutlery made from cardboard or wood, we have compostable packaging foil for vegetables and compostable trash can liners. The only problem is adoption -- as long as plastic is slightly cheaper, no one will use it. I really hope the EU comes down hard on plastic packaging -- imagine if all packaging was compostable, you could just throw it on a pile in your back yard and it would turn into fertile soil within a couple of months!
- pjc50 8y ago
  > imagine if all packaging was compostable How much would the loss rates of packaged goods increase? Shelf stability is a very useful property which saves food from being wasted.
  - Nae3Au5x 8y ago
    Compostable does not mean it decays under your eyes. E.g. polyurethanes are marginally biodegradeable by fungi and still last years when the conditions are not ideal for them.
  - jakobegger 8y ago
    If things need to be sealed, just use reusable glass containers. When I was a kid, yoghurt came in glass jars. But most stuff would be fine just wrapped in paper or cardboard. Also, it's not like long shelf life is a necessity. Lots of stores manage to sell fresh goods without a lot of waste. Sure, it won't be a trivial transition, but I'm pretty sure people would find a way. It's just a question of our priorities: do we want to live in a dump just to make it easier for a supermarket to sell you 25 different types of pre-packaged chicken?
    - akvadrako 8y ago
      Glass is much more environmentally destructive than plastic; this is just a terrible idea.
      - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        Not as waste surely? Beaches throughout the world are largely glassy - they are not normally considered as undesirable.
      - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
        Not quite sure how you arrive at that. Unlike plastic, glass is inert. Old broken glass tends to revert to pebbles or sand after a little erosion. Sharp edges don't last long at all.
        kaybe 8y ago
        Maybe GP is talking about the energy balance? If the energy comes from fossil fuels that can be a big factor.
- nakkijono 8y ago
  Burning the plastic in dedicated facilities is the only good solution. Use it for energy, and burn less gas & oil as a result. Everything else tends to have a bigger carbon footprint. Burning the stuff is profitable even today. Compostable will produce methane etc., especially in your back yard.
  - viraptor 8y ago
    > Compostable will produce methane etc., especially in your back yard. Is that a bad thing for a small garden compost pile? I understand it's dangerous on a large industrial scale.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      Methane is around 100X worse as a greenhouse gas than CO2. So even a little, is a lot.
  - usrusr 8y ago
    As long as we are burning fossil fuel for low-intensity heat use anyways, (e.g. combined cycle heat/power plants), giving the fuel a temporary role as packaging before burning doesn't seem such a bad idea. Emissions treatment has come a long way. Alternative packaging solutions don't have zero footprint either (e.g. ferrying around reusable containers)
  - jakobegger 8y ago
    Burning the stuff is only profitable if you get it sorted without contaminants. But only a fraction of packaging is collected properly. As long as that crap is produced, people will throw it wherever they want, and nobody will collect and sort the plastic for free just so you can burn it "profitable".
- gbrown 8y ago
  Lots of that "compostable" stuff won't break down in home compost bins, and instead needs to be ground up and hot composted in a municipal setting.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- wool_gather 8y ago
  > imagine if all packaging was compostable, you could just throw it on a pile in your back yard and it would turn into fertile soil within a couple of months Nope, this is emphatically not how the compostable materials you're talking about work. I invite you to try it: you will not see much degradation of the object even after a year, even with shredding and in a well-maintained pile. Almost all of these materials need special composting processing; one of the key requirements is adding quite a bit of heat. I've known several restaurants/groceries trying to use compostable cups/utensils/etc. whose compost service eventually required the pickup to be completely free of these items. Portland, OR has municipal compost; they likewise cannot process these items: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/sustainabilityatwork/article/552852 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/sustainabilityatwork/article/... These materials may be better than "traditional" plastic, but the "compostable" nature is rather oversold. They still need to be handled in a very specific manner. They won't break down without quite a bit of help.
  - jakobegger 8y ago
    That stuff is not what I was thinking about. I was thinking about bags like those: https://www.amazon.com/UNNI-ASTM6400-Certified-Compostable-Francisco/dp/B013XGQXVW/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1533320519&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=organic+trash+bags&dpPl=1&dpID=411FC8iuVmL&ref=plSrch https://www.amazon.com/UNNI-ASTM6400-Certified-Compostable-F... Materials like that can be used as trash can liners and for carrying vegetables. Paper, cardboard, wood can be used for single use dishes and cutlery.

jakobegger 8y ago

This is the only real solution. Everything else is pointless. As long as we keep producing plastics, they will end up in the environment, and whatever doesn't will be a pain to recycle. We already have alternatives for almost everything. We have single use plates and cutlery made from cardboard or wood, we have compostable packaging foil for vegetables and compostable trash can liners. The only problem is adoption -- as long as plastic is slightly cheaper, no one will use it. I really hope the EU comes down hard on plastic packaging -- imagine if all packaging was compostable, you could just throw it on a pile in your back yard and it would turn into fertile soil within a couple of months!

pjc50 8y ago
> imagine if all packaging was compostable How much would the loss rates of packaged goods increase? Shelf stability is a very useful property which saves food from being wasted.
- Nae3Au5x 8y ago
  Compostable does not mean it decays under your eyes. E.g. polyurethanes are marginally biodegradeable by fungi and still last years when the conditions are not ideal for them.
- jakobegger 8y ago
  If things need to be sealed, just use reusable glass containers. When I was a kid, yoghurt came in glass jars. But most stuff would be fine just wrapped in paper or cardboard. Also, it's not like long shelf life is a necessity. Lots of stores manage to sell fresh goods without a lot of waste. Sure, it won't be a trivial transition, but I'm pretty sure people would find a way. It's just a question of our priorities: do we want to live in a dump just to make it easier for a supermarket to sell you 25 different types of pre-packaged chicken?
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    Glass is much more environmentally destructive than plastic; this is just a terrible idea.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      Not as waste surely? Beaches throughout the world are largely glassy - they are not normally considered as undesirable.
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
      Not quite sure how you arrive at that. Unlike plastic, glass is inert. Old broken glass tends to revert to pebbles or sand after a little erosion. Sharp edges don't last long at all.
      - kaybe 8y ago
        Maybe GP is talking about the energy balance? If the energy comes from fossil fuels that can be a big factor.
nakkijono 8y ago
Burning the plastic in dedicated facilities is the only good solution. Use it for energy, and burn less gas & oil as a result. Everything else tends to have a bigger carbon footprint. Burning the stuff is profitable even today. Compostable will produce methane etc., especially in your back yard.
- viraptor 8y ago
  > Compostable will produce methane etc., especially in your back yard. Is that a bad thing for a small garden compost pile? I understand it's dangerous on a large industrial scale.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Methane is around 100X worse as a greenhouse gas than CO2. So even a little, is a lot.
- usrusr 8y ago
  As long as we are burning fossil fuel for low-intensity heat use anyways, (e.g. combined cycle heat/power plants), giving the fuel a temporary role as packaging before burning doesn't seem such a bad idea. Emissions treatment has come a long way. Alternative packaging solutions don't have zero footprint either (e.g. ferrying around reusable containers)
- jakobegger 8y ago
  Burning the stuff is only profitable if you get it sorted without contaminants. But only a fraction of packaging is collected properly. As long as that crap is produced, people will throw it wherever they want, and nobody will collect and sort the plastic for free just so you can burn it "profitable".
gbrown 8y ago
Lots of that "compostable" stuff won't break down in home compost bins, and instead needs to be ground up and hot composted in a municipal setting.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
wool_gather 8y ago
> imagine if all packaging was compostable, you could just throw it on a pile in your back yard and it would turn into fertile soil within a couple of months Nope, this is emphatically not how the compostable materials you're talking about work. I invite you to try it: you will not see much degradation of the object even after a year, even with shredding and in a well-maintained pile. Almost all of these materials need special composting processing; one of the key requirements is adding quite a bit of heat. I've known several restaurants/groceries trying to use compostable cups/utensils/etc. whose compost service eventually required the pickup to be completely free of these items. Portland, OR has municipal compost; they likewise cannot process these items: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/sustainabilityatwork/article/552852 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/sustainabilityatwork/article/... These materials may be better than "traditional" plastic, but the "compostable" nature is rather oversold. They still need to be handled in a very specific manner. They won't break down without quite a bit of help.
- jakobegger 8y ago
  That stuff is not what I was thinking about. I was thinking about bags like those: https://www.amazon.com/UNNI-ASTM6400-Certified-Compostable-Francisco/dp/B013XGQXVW/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1533320519&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=organic+trash+bags&dpPl=1&dpID=411FC8iuVmL&ref=plSrch https://www.amazon.com/UNNI-ASTM6400-Certified-Compostable-F... Materials like that can be used as trash can liners and for carrying vegetables. Paper, cardboard, wood can be used for single use dishes and cutlery.