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I cringe when i hear western european leaders talk about how their countries must accept immigration from third world countries to "save the economy" or "stabil

I cringe when i hear western european leaders talk about how their countries must accept immigration from third world countries to "save the economy" or "stabilize the social service systems". Even if these immigrants end up to be net tax payers after all the costs of feeding, housing, integrating these people... well, guess what, eventually they get old too and this circle starts over.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
> well, guess what, eventually they get old too and this circle starts over. Our economies are built on the assumption of endless growth. Those immigrants better have children above the replacement rate.
geff82 8y ago
Sorry to tell you that there is a big difference between regular immigrants and refugees. A regular Immigrant to Europe usually is a net win from day one because they have been educated for free in their country of origin, while the upfront cost of raising someone in your own country with your own taxes is quite high (Kindergarten, school, university...).
- insertcredit 8y ago
  This is an oversimplification. A lot (most?) of the problematic immigrants in the EU come from developing countries and are not very well (if at all) educated. There are exceptions of course. In Germany where I live there has been a massive wave of immigrants coming from Greece. Having met quite a few, a lot of them have a university-level education and decided to immigrate in order to escape from a corrupt non-meritocratic state and make the most of their abilities. Greece is a member of the EU and culturally belongs in the west thus there are no cultural clashes or assimilation issues, which is why Germany is a net winner in this case. On the flipside, we also have a lot of immigrants from Africa / Egypt / Morocco / the Middle East that lack any sort of education and contribute to rising crime and cultural dilution. Islam makes it even worse, since it's very exclusive and does not allow for cultural assimilation to take place. Now, keep in mind that a lot of these immigrants also seek to game the state via rent-seeking and typically have a lot of children. The writing on the wall if the current policies continue is not hard to discern. For immigrants coming from outside the EU, I'm a firm supporter of Singapore's first-order eugenic criteria. Countries should adopt harsh immigration policies and accept people who probabilistically will turn out to be assets to society. Unfortunately, populism is experiencing a renaissance in Europe, and it's very easy for politicians to appeal to the brainwashed masses on "humanitarian" grounds to vote for policies that will lead to major clashes in the future. In some EU countries, implementing said liberal immigration policies has led to the rapid rise of nationalist parties so backlash is already happening (and in the worst possible way).
  - selimthegrim 8y ago
    > Islam makes it even worse, since it's very exclusive and does not allow for cultural assimilation to take place. I have seen some generalizations on HN but this is a howler - takes the cake.
Hasknewbie 8y ago
>> "Even if these immigrants end up to be net tax payers after all the costs of feeding, housing, integrating these people" So, I don't know how immigration works on your planet, but here in the real world immigrants do not get free "feeding, housing" or free anything-else. In fact a key condition in even the most open/lenient countries is that you must show proof that you can provide for yourself. Any other way would simply not make any sense, and I am always in awe at the level of confabulation needed to believe these nativist fairy tales. Or maybe you're one of these people who mistake immigrants for refugees?
- s9w 8y ago
  Immigrants and "refugees" are more or less interchangeable. They are both used similarly by politicians who call for immigration and mean refugees and open borders. And they certainly are used very loosely by the people themselves, who just need to mumble that they are Syrian to get all the goodies. But anyways - both do definitely not have to proof that they can provide for themselves. At least not in large parts of Europe.
  - lawlessone 8y ago
    >who just need to mumble that they are Syrian to get all the goodies. Maybe you should stay off the chans and Voat there buddy, maybe stop reading Brietbart.
    - s9w 8y ago
      There is no reasonable process to verify refugee claims. There are countless cases of refugees having multiple "identities" by just going from center to center and get their money. Even Anis amri (Berlin terrorist) had 14 identities. edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38516691 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38516691
      - lawlessone 8y ago
        >multiple identities apparently enabled him to claim large amounts in welfare benefits. Pretty sure you don't have to be a migrant to do that. Plenty of people doing it in my country are locals.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> well, guess what, eventually they get old too and this circle starts over. Our economies are built on the assumption of endless growth. Those immigrants better have children above the replacement rate.

geff82 8y ago

Sorry to tell you that there is a big difference between regular immigrants and refugees. A regular Immigrant to Europe usually is a net win from day one because they have been educated for free in their country of origin, while the upfront cost of raising someone in your own country with your own taxes is quite high (Kindergarten, school, university...).

insertcredit 8y ago
This is an oversimplification. A lot (most?) of the problematic immigrants in the EU come from developing countries and are not very well (if at all) educated. There are exceptions of course. In Germany where I live there has been a massive wave of immigrants coming from Greece. Having met quite a few, a lot of them have a university-level education and decided to immigrate in order to escape from a corrupt non-meritocratic state and make the most of their abilities. Greece is a member of the EU and culturally belongs in the west thus there are no cultural clashes or assimilation issues, which is why Germany is a net winner in this case. On the flipside, we also have a lot of immigrants from Africa / Egypt / Morocco / the Middle East that lack any sort of education and contribute to rising crime and cultural dilution. Islam makes it even worse, since it's very exclusive and does not allow for cultural assimilation to take place. Now, keep in mind that a lot of these immigrants also seek to game the state via rent-seeking and typically have a lot of children. The writing on the wall if the current policies continue is not hard to discern. For immigrants coming from outside the EU, I'm a firm supporter of Singapore's first-order eugenic criteria. Countries should adopt harsh immigration policies and accept people who probabilistically will turn out to be assets to society. Unfortunately, populism is experiencing a renaissance in Europe, and it's very easy for politicians to appeal to the brainwashed masses on "humanitarian" grounds to vote for policies that will lead to major clashes in the future. In some EU countries, implementing said liberal immigration policies has led to the rapid rise of nationalist parties so backlash is already happening (and in the worst possible way).
- selimthegrim 8y ago
  > Islam makes it even worse, since it's very exclusive and does not allow for cultural assimilation to take place. I have seen some generalizations on HN but this is a howler - takes the cake.

Hasknewbie 8y ago

>> "Even if these immigrants end up to be net tax payers after all the costs of feeding, housing, integrating these people" So, I don't know how immigration works on your planet, but here in the real world immigrants do not get free "feeding, housing" or free anything-else. In fact a key condition in even the most open/lenient countries is that you must show proof that you can provide for yourself. Any other way would simply not make any sense, and I am always in awe at the level of confabulation needed to believe these nativist fairy tales. Or maybe you're one of these people who mistake immigrants for refugees?

s9w 8y ago
Immigrants and "refugees" are more or less interchangeable. They are both used similarly by politicians who call for immigration and mean refugees and open borders. And they certainly are used very loosely by the people themselves, who just need to mumble that they are Syrian to get all the goodies. But anyways - both do definitely not have to proof that they can provide for themselves. At least not in large parts of Europe.
- lawlessone 8y ago
  >who just need to mumble that they are Syrian to get all the goodies. Maybe you should stay off the chans and Voat there buddy, maybe stop reading Brietbart.
  - s9w 8y ago
    There is no reasonable process to verify refugee claims. There are countless cases of refugees having multiple "identities" by just going from center to center and get their money. Even Anis amri (Berlin terrorist) had 14 identities. edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38516691 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38516691
    - lawlessone 8y ago
      >multiple identities apparently enabled him to claim large amounts in welfare benefits. Pretty sure you don't have to be a migrant to do that. Plenty of people doing it in my country are locals.