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This art theft reminds me of this story of a Georgian women scavenging for copper knocking Armenia off the Internet: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/

This art theft reminds me of this story of a Georgian women scavenging for copper knocking Armenia off the Internet: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/06/georgian-woman-cuts-web-access https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/06/georgian-woman... The common thread is poor people turning euros into cents, which is to say destroying something of great value to (attempt to) produce some small gain for themselves. This is a completely rational thing to do when it seems you have no better options, which is why social mobility is so important.

bkor 8y ago
> This is a completely rational thing to do when it seems you have no better options, which is why social mobility is so important. Romania is within the EU and there is free movement of people. Meaning, they can relocate here for work. They're entitled to social security a) after living in Netherlands for 3 months and b) are legally allowed to actually live here (this latter bit is interesting). Though important to note that it appears that as soon you ask for social security they'll try to cancel your right to live here. When Poland got the right to work elsewhere they hugely made use of that, though always went back to Poland. Leaving to situations where they do everything to save as much of their salary. E.g. living with too many people within one house, accepting way too low wages (unfair competition or sometimes illegal below CLA wages), etc. But overall it seemed there was quite a benefit. For Romania up to now it's mostly criminals who travel. I guess due to distance (easier to drive by car from Poland).
- noelwelsh 8y ago
  On the individual level these people are adults, they committed crimes, and they should face the consequences. On a wider level, though, society has failed them---it's failed to give them with the skills and mindset to do useful work. Some people will always turn to crime no matter their circumstances. I would guess that Radu, the ringleader, would have, but I doubt the others would have if they had better options AND the skills and knowledge to access those options.
  - bkor 8y ago
    To me it seems they're living in a not so nice country (Romania) economy wise. So their country failed them. There should be enough work so they don't have to turn to something else. When a few years ago Spain had a huge unemployment rate there was quite a huge amount of people moving to e.g. The Netherlands (quite noticeable). If you live long enough in another country I assume you'll tend to stay. Leaving the original country worse off. I'm wondering if Romania might have a brain drain because of it. Netherlands currently has a low unemployment rate, so additional workers might be ok. But it might not be so ok for the countries they come from. PS: I'm not disagreeing.
- _petronius 8y ago
  > For Romania up to now it's mostly criminals who travel. That's both offensive and unsupportable, and I've downvoted you on that basis. This kind of bigotry against Romanians and other eastern Europeans, especially the Polish, on the basis of their perceived "criminality" or "they took our jobs"-type mentality deserves to be called out wherever it crops up, because it isn't true, it's pretty racist, and it's part of a culture of dog-whistle nationalism that is quite harmful.
  - reacweb 8y ago
    There's an upsurge in burglaries in France and Romanians are often quoted by Police as responsible. European rules authorize Polish to come to work in France and go back in Poland to spend their money. I hope hacker news is a place where we can discuss about these subjects without veing accused of racism. Burglaries are a problem for France and also for Romania. I think both countries should work together to fight this kind of criminality. Polish mobility is an expected consequence of free market and all the short term problems should disappear with time.
  - Theodores 8y ago
    I have met many hard working, extremely well educated Romanian programmers. They don't get mentioned in the Daily Mail though, despite their work life balance, contribution to society and polite ways.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  > For Romania up to now it's mostly criminals who travel. I guess due to distance The Romanian diaspora in Western Europe is well over a million people. The vast majority of them are people from low-prospect regions in Romania who do all manner of perfectly honorable, albeit unskilled labor for Western Europe countries. A substantial minority of them are well-educated city people who leave for abroad after university, because skilled labor in Romania pays less than what they would desire. I don’t deny there is some small minority of criminals, but you are oblivious to all of the completely ordinary Gastarbeiter-type emigration to Western Europe. Also, the common Western Europe conflation of ethnic Roma with ethnic Romanians with criminals has had some very unfair results for Romania the country. A lot of times those Roma you see – who, again, might not necessarily be involved in crime – are actually from Bulgaria (or the former Yugoslavia), but no one bothers to tell the difference. > I guess due to distance You do realize that Romania is well-connected to the rest of Europe with budget airlines now? Even before them, there is a well-developed network of buses that mainly served to carry workers back and forth from Western Europe in as little as one overnight journey.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    Ah, the Roma, I think they are the only one to stoop low enough to use children to steal clothing from donation boxes in broad daylight
- wlll 8y ago
  > Romania is within the EU and there is free movement of people. Meaning, they can relocate here for work. This is something that people seems to get confused about quite a lot. The legal ability to move somewhere isn't the only thing that prevents people from moving somewhere, there can be far stronger ties to a place that prevent someone leaving. For instance, I live in the UK and I want to live in Spain or Italy (I want better weather and I like Mediterranean food). I can't really do that because my kids are in school and I don't want to disrupt their education, and my parents and parents in law live relatively close by and within the next few years will need more care, and my wife isn't as keen on the idea as I am. Also, the residents of Flint, Michigan. The water there is polluted and it is negatively affecting their health. Even though they are legally free to leave at any point and go anywhere else in the US they don't. When you take education, wealth, family ties and even the ability to learn a language into account there are a lot of people for whom staying put is pretty much the only option, and at that point they have to make the best of the situation around them.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    > there can be far stronger ties to a place that prevent someone leaving That seems to be something that a lot of the HN crowd seem to forget. I guess it doesn't surprise me too much, as a lot of people on this forum have relocated to SF and other tech centers for work. I myself am an economic migrant, I left everything behind and moved to a new country where I knew nobody. However, it was fortunately easy for me, because I had managed to fuck up most of my relationships back at home, so for me to pack my life into a suitcase and move was pretty trivial. I think that a lot of people here on HN are in the same boat, they just don't realise it, or don't realise that other people aren't in the same boat.
    - dorchadas 8y ago
      The other thing people forget is also how expensive it is to move. If you're living paycheck to paycheck, good luck being able to save any to put towards a deposit on a new place or to even get to a new place. And then, if you don't have a job lined up already, how are you going to live while looking for one? And if you do have a job, great... Does it pay enough to allow you to move to take it? I'd say most jobs don't offer relocation benefits. Yeah, definitely not as easy to love as a lot of people think. It's expensive, and it's often hard to completely leave your support network and the others who depend on you.
- MrCzar 8y ago
  On behalf of Romania: Thanks for the kind words...
- gambiting 8y ago
  >>When Poland got the right to work elsewhere they hugely made use of that, though always went back to Poland. Sweeping statements like this are really unwelcome you know. As a Pole living in the UK with zero intentions of going back, not sending any money there, definitely unwilling to accept a lower wage than a British counterpart and absolutely not living in poor conditions to save money, these statements perpetuate stereotypes about us, like not so long ago Germans used to say that the only reason why Poles come to Germany was to steal cars.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    "Ein ehrlicher Pole fährt nüchtern in seinem Auto zur Arbeit"
    - dang 8y ago
      Spare us the ethnic slurs please.
      - blattimwind 8y ago
        I actually posted that (as a quote) to underline GPs point of "like not so long ago Germans used to say". "Jokes" like this were/are common to bash poles.
        dang 8y ago
        Ah. That's reasonable, but wasn't clear from context. It probably would have been had I read the thread more carefully—sorry about that. Moderation involves a lot of skimming. The harsh tone was because when the real thing does appear, we want to signal how unacceptable it is. But I'm sorry I directed it at you and am grateful for your neutral reply.
  - hutzlibu 8y ago
    But he was speaking of the majority of polish people who work abroad, right? Not that all polish people are doing it. And you seem to be qualified enough, to get the "better" jobs. But the ordinary polish people accept lower wages, when they are still higher than what they would get back home. It is allways the question with what you compare it. And that germans used to say, the polish steal our cars, was because there have been many car stealing gangs. And the common rassism/nationalism to generalize and to protect the home economy against the working immigrants who steal our jobs. So degrading them, makes it easier to justify actions against "them". Very common theme. I think it stopped with the polish, because they got much richer and are not so poor in comparison anymore - and because the nationalist unite against the even poorer people from africa etc.
- kgwgk 8y ago
  There are more than two million Romanians living just in Italy and Spain. Do you think most of them are criminals?
- teniutza 8y ago
  This is like The Great Romanian Invasion of Great Britain, a couple of years back, right? Because they can and sometimes do go looking for work in other European countries, it means that all of them go, and never come back... What are you basing your statements on? Can you please define "mostly"? How many romanians have you met? How many polish people do you know? Do you know a sufficiently large number in order to statistically back your statement? Can you reference a competent source where we can find some proof of what you're saying?
- dang 8y ago
  That crosses into an ethnic slur and that is not ok on HN. Please don't post like this again.
MaxBarraclough 8y ago
Social mobility? No, it's about preventing people becoming that desperate. By definition, social mobility just lets you mix up the set of which people who are desperate, no?
- philipov 8y ago
  Only if you assume mobility is a zero-sum game. It doesn't have to be, if we allow people to obtain wealth from their labor instead of sucking all the alpha into a black hole of wealth consolidation by the already-wealthy. Positive-sum social mobility was supposed to be the point of economic growth, but instead that growth was captured by rent-seekers, institutional investors, and others.
  - AmericanChopper 8y ago
    Quality of life has been rising and poverty has been falling at very consistent rates worldwide over the past few decades. By just about any metric you could find, it's currently the best time to be a human being in the history of humanity.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      I cannot square that with a generation jobless, unable to buy their own place or even a car in many cases. If you cherry pick what 'poverty' is, I guess so, and surely even the least of us live better than 13th century peasants. But better than in 1980? No.
      - barrkel 8y ago
        Ah, but what about China, and Nigeria? They're doing much better! It's going to get worse, you know, the pushback from hollowed out rich world economies. Trump isn't the last populist, and he's not going to have been the worst. A more competent leader will learn from the fears Trump harnessed and be far more effective.
      - AmericanChopper 8y ago
baud147258 8y ago
It's common in France with the Overhead lines on railtracks, it's not as if we needed more delay in our trains.

bkor 8y ago

> This is a completely rational thing to do when it seems you have no better options, which is why social mobility is so important. Romania is within the EU and there is free movement of people. Meaning, they can relocate here for work. They're entitled to social security a) after living in Netherlands for 3 months and b) are legally allowed to actually live here (this latter bit is interesting). Though important to note that it appears that as soon you ask for social security they'll try to cancel your right to live here. When Poland got the right to work elsewhere they hugely made use of that, though always went back to Poland. Leaving to situations where they do everything to save as much of their salary. E.g. living with too many people within one house, accepting way too low wages (unfair competition or sometimes illegal below CLA wages), etc. But overall it seemed there was quite a benefit. For Romania up to now it's mostly criminals who travel. I guess due to distance (easier to drive by car from Poland).

noelwelsh 8y ago
On the individual level these people are adults, they committed crimes, and they should face the consequences. On a wider level, though, society has failed them---it's failed to give them with the skills and mindset to do useful work. Some people will always turn to crime no matter their circumstances. I would guess that Radu, the ringleader, would have, but I doubt the others would have if they had better options AND the skills and knowledge to access those options.
- bkor 8y ago
  To me it seems they're living in a not so nice country (Romania) economy wise. So their country failed them. There should be enough work so they don't have to turn to something else. When a few years ago Spain had a huge unemployment rate there was quite a huge amount of people moving to e.g. The Netherlands (quite noticeable). If you live long enough in another country I assume you'll tend to stay. Leaving the original country worse off. I'm wondering if Romania might have a brain drain because of it. Netherlands currently has a low unemployment rate, so additional workers might be ok. But it might not be so ok for the countries they come from. PS: I'm not disagreeing.
_petronius 8y ago
> For Romania up to now it's mostly criminals who travel. That's both offensive and unsupportable, and I've downvoted you on that basis. This kind of bigotry against Romanians and other eastern Europeans, especially the Polish, on the basis of their perceived "criminality" or "they took our jobs"-type mentality deserves to be called out wherever it crops up, because it isn't true, it's pretty racist, and it's part of a culture of dog-whistle nationalism that is quite harmful.
- reacweb 8y ago
  There's an upsurge in burglaries in France and Romanians are often quoted by Police as responsible. European rules authorize Polish to come to work in France and go back in Poland to spend their money. I hope hacker news is a place where we can discuss about these subjects without veing accused of racism. Burglaries are a problem for France and also for Romania. I think both countries should work together to fight this kind of criminality. Polish mobility is an expected consequence of free market and all the short term problems should disappear with time.
- Theodores 8y ago
  I have met many hard working, extremely well educated Romanian programmers. They don't get mentioned in the Daily Mail though, despite their work life balance, contribution to society and polite ways.
Mediterraneo10 8y ago
> For Romania up to now it's mostly criminals who travel. I guess due to distance The Romanian diaspora in Western Europe is well over a million people. The vast majority of them are people from low-prospect regions in Romania who do all manner of perfectly honorable, albeit unskilled labor for Western Europe countries. A substantial minority of them are well-educated city people who leave for abroad after university, because skilled labor in Romania pays less than what they would desire. I don’t deny there is some small minority of criminals, but you are oblivious to all of the completely ordinary Gastarbeiter-type emigration to Western Europe. Also, the common Western Europe conflation of ethnic Roma with ethnic Romanians with criminals has had some very unfair results for Romania the country. A lot of times those Roma you see – who, again, might not necessarily be involved in crime – are actually from Bulgaria (or the former Yugoslavia), but no one bothers to tell the difference. > I guess due to distance You do realize that Romania is well-connected to the rest of Europe with budget airlines now? Even before them, there is a well-developed network of buses that mainly served to carry workers back and forth from Western Europe in as little as one overnight journey.
- baud147258 8y ago
  Ah, the Roma, I think they are the only one to stoop low enough to use children to steal clothing from donation boxes in broad daylight
wlll 8y ago
> Romania is within the EU and there is free movement of people. Meaning, they can relocate here for work. This is something that people seems to get confused about quite a lot. The legal ability to move somewhere isn't the only thing that prevents people from moving somewhere, there can be far stronger ties to a place that prevent someone leaving. For instance, I live in the UK and I want to live in Spain or Italy (I want better weather and I like Mediterranean food). I can't really do that because my kids are in school and I don't want to disrupt their education, and my parents and parents in law live relatively close by and within the next few years will need more care, and my wife isn't as keen on the idea as I am. Also, the residents of Flint, Michigan. The water there is polluted and it is negatively affecting their health. Even though they are legally free to leave at any point and go anywhere else in the US they don't. When you take education, wealth, family ties and even the ability to learn a language into account there are a lot of people for whom staying put is pretty much the only option, and at that point they have to make the best of the situation around them.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  > there can be far stronger ties to a place that prevent someone leaving That seems to be something that a lot of the HN crowd seem to forget. I guess it doesn't surprise me too much, as a lot of people on this forum have relocated to SF and other tech centers for work. I myself am an economic migrant, I left everything behind and moved to a new country where I knew nobody. However, it was fortunately easy for me, because I had managed to fuck up most of my relationships back at home, so for me to pack my life into a suitcase and move was pretty trivial. I think that a lot of people here on HN are in the same boat, they just don't realise it, or don't realise that other people aren't in the same boat.
  - dorchadas 8y ago
    The other thing people forget is also how expensive it is to move. If you're living paycheck to paycheck, good luck being able to save any to put towards a deposit on a new place or to even get to a new place. And then, if you don't have a job lined up already, how are you going to live while looking for one? And if you do have a job, great... Does it pay enough to allow you to move to take it? I'd say most jobs don't offer relocation benefits. Yeah, definitely not as easy to love as a lot of people think. It's expensive, and it's often hard to completely leave your support network and the others who depend on you.
MrCzar 8y ago
On behalf of Romania: Thanks for the kind words...
gambiting 8y ago
>>When Poland got the right to work elsewhere they hugely made use of that, though always went back to Poland. Sweeping statements like this are really unwelcome you know. As a Pole living in the UK with zero intentions of going back, not sending any money there, definitely unwilling to accept a lower wage than a British counterpart and absolutely not living in poor conditions to save money, these statements perpetuate stereotypes about us, like not so long ago Germans used to say that the only reason why Poles come to Germany was to steal cars.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  "Ein ehrlicher Pole fährt nüchtern in seinem Auto zur Arbeit"
  - dang 8y ago
    Spare us the ethnic slurs please.
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      I actually posted that (as a quote) to underline GPs point of "like not so long ago Germans used to say". "Jokes" like this were/are common to bash poles.
      - dang 8y ago
        Ah. That's reasonable, but wasn't clear from context. It probably would have been had I read the thread more carefully—sorry about that. Moderation involves a lot of skimming. The harsh tone was because when the real thing does appear, we want to signal how unacceptable it is. But I'm sorry I directed it at you and am grateful for your neutral reply.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  But he was speaking of the majority of polish people who work abroad, right? Not that all polish people are doing it. And you seem to be qualified enough, to get the "better" jobs. But the ordinary polish people accept lower wages, when they are still higher than what they would get back home. It is allways the question with what you compare it. And that germans used to say, the polish steal our cars, was because there have been many car stealing gangs. And the common rassism/nationalism to generalize and to protect the home economy against the working immigrants who steal our jobs. So degrading them, makes it easier to justify actions against "them". Very common theme. I think it stopped with the polish, because they got much richer and are not so poor in comparison anymore - and because the nationalist unite against the even poorer people from africa etc.
kgwgk 8y ago
There are more than two million Romanians living just in Italy and Spain. Do you think most of them are criminals?
teniutza 8y ago
This is like The Great Romanian Invasion of Great Britain, a couple of years back, right? Because they can and sometimes do go looking for work in other European countries, it means that all of them go, and never come back... What are you basing your statements on? Can you please define "mostly"? How many romanians have you met? How many polish people do you know? Do you know a sufficiently large number in order to statistically back your statement? Can you reference a competent source where we can find some proof of what you're saying?
dang 8y ago
That crosses into an ethnic slur and that is not ok on HN. Please don't post like this again.

MaxBarraclough 8y ago

Social mobility? No, it's about preventing people becoming that desperate. By definition, social mobility just lets you mix up the set of which people who are desperate, no?

philipov 8y ago
Only if you assume mobility is a zero-sum game. It doesn't have to be, if we allow people to obtain wealth from their labor instead of sucking all the alpha into a black hole of wealth consolidation by the already-wealthy. Positive-sum social mobility was supposed to be the point of economic growth, but instead that growth was captured by rent-seekers, institutional investors, and others.
- AmericanChopper 8y ago
  Quality of life has been rising and poverty has been falling at very consistent rates worldwide over the past few decades. By just about any metric you could find, it's currently the best time to be a human being in the history of humanity.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    I cannot square that with a generation jobless, unable to buy their own place or even a car in many cases. If you cherry pick what 'poverty' is, I guess so, and surely even the least of us live better than 13th century peasants. But better than in 1980? No.
    - barrkel 8y ago
      Ah, but what about China, and Nigeria? They're doing much better! It's going to get worse, you know, the pushback from hollowed out rich world economies. Trump isn't the last populist, and he's not going to have been the worst. A more competent leader will learn from the fears Trump harnessed and be far more effective.
    - AmericanChopper 8y ago

baud147258 8y ago

It's common in France with the Overhead lines on railtracks, it's not as if we needed more delay in our trains.