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In Frankfurt (Germany) some random, well-dressed woman approached my wife on the street (when I was just next to her, maybe I should stand even more close to he

In Frankfurt (Germany) some random, well-dressed woman approached my wife on the street (when I was just next to her, maybe I should stand even more close to her haha), took her hand, and told her that she is beautiful and she'd like to get her a drink. My wife laughed and jokingly told her that it was too late, while showing her ring. Meanwhile I was grinning like a child. She said she was sorry to bother us, and walked away. I wonder how we would react if the person were a man, and weren't that presentable. It's very, very hard to say when it becomes offending/harassment. There being clear cases like the linked video in the article, doesn't change this. I'm not saying that that guy in the video should get away with it just because we keep bike-shedding about where the line is, but it is something we need to think about as well.

tom_mellior 8y ago
The question doesn't come up if you just don't walk up to random strangers on the street and make comments. Sure, sometimes it might work out fine for both parties. In almost all cases it doesn't. If that woman feared retribution due to harassment laws, and she wouldn't have approached your wife, then the world now would be poorer by one anecdote, but at the same time much safer and more welcoming to billions of women. It's not a hard choice at all.
- egeozcan 8y ago
  I value your opinion, but I have one worry: Keep removing "anecdotes" one-by-one, and, in the end, maybe we'd be living in Orwell's 1984?
  - tom_mellior 8y ago
    No.
squiggleblaz 8y ago
So someone behaves questionably. That's not a defence against another person behaving questionably. Anyway it's generally understood that there's differences in the appropriate behavior of men and women. For instance, it's okay for me to come up and piss next to a guy who's pissing but probably not okay for me to come up and piss next to a woman who's pissing. So even if her behavior was accepted as reasonable however odd it was, it's not proof that every guy doing that would also be accepted as reasonable. You're not responsible for the behavior of other people, but you do have to take into account other people's behavior (to the extent it's known to you) and your own past behavior, when you're deciding how you should interact with other people. These aren't new ideas. They're the basic principles of manners that have always been part of our society. Criticise pushing them into law as much as you want: but don't act like they're coming out of nowhere and impossible to comply with or enforce.
- maym86 8y ago
  Right. OP describing a situation where everyone was happy isn't really a good starting point for a discussion of harrasment. There are many of examples of real clear cases (see video in article) why not start the discussion there rather than with a situation he imagined might happen.
cimmanom 8y ago
It sounds, though, as if this stranger approached politely and respectfully and didn’t press the issue when you indicated lack of interest. A man who did the same would probably not be harassing. This law is clearly not targeting any potential romantic interaction between strangers on the street. “You’re attractive” can be harassment in a workplace setting (where power dynamics and standards of professionalism are different) without being harassment in a different setting. This law is targeting catcalling and men who will follow a woman down the street. These behaviors are power plays and are intimidating in a way that a polite and respectful approach is not. You may never have been the target of such behaviors, but if she travels frequently on foot, your wife almost certainly has been, and can likely tell you just how awful it is to be the target of them - ranging from disempowering to mortifying to terrifying.

tom_mellior 8y ago

The question doesn't come up if you just don't walk up to random strangers on the street and make comments. Sure, sometimes it might work out fine for both parties. In almost all cases it doesn't. If that woman feared retribution due to harassment laws, and she wouldn't have approached your wife, then the world now would be poorer by one anecdote, but at the same time much safer and more welcoming to billions of women. It's not a hard choice at all.

egeozcan 8y ago
I value your opinion, but I have one worry: Keep removing "anecdotes" one-by-one, and, in the end, maybe we'd be living in Orwell's 1984?
- tom_mellior 8y ago
  No.

squiggleblaz 8y ago

So someone behaves questionably. That's not a defence against another person behaving questionably. Anyway it's generally understood that there's differences in the appropriate behavior of men and women. For instance, it's okay for me to come up and piss next to a guy who's pissing but probably not okay for me to come up and piss next to a woman who's pissing. So even if her behavior was accepted as reasonable however odd it was, it's not proof that every guy doing that would also be accepted as reasonable. You're not responsible for the behavior of other people, but you do have to take into account other people's behavior (to the extent it's known to you) and your own past behavior, when you're deciding how you should interact with other people. These aren't new ideas. They're the basic principles of manners that have always been part of our society. Criticise pushing them into law as much as you want: but don't act like they're coming out of nowhere and impossible to comply with or enforce.

maym86 8y ago
Right. OP describing a situation where everyone was happy isn't really a good starting point for a discussion of harrasment. There are many of examples of real clear cases (see video in article) why not start the discussion there rather than with a situation he imagined might happen.

cimmanom 8y ago

It sounds, though, as if this stranger approached politely and respectfully and didn’t press the issue when you indicated lack of interest. A man who did the same would probably not be harassing. This law is clearly not targeting any potential romantic interaction between strangers on the street. “You’re attractive” can be harassment in a workplace setting (where power dynamics and standards of professionalism are different) without being harassment in a different setting. This law is targeting catcalling and men who will follow a woman down the street. These behaviors are power plays and are intimidating in a way that a polite and respectful approach is not. You may never have been the target of such behaviors, but if she travels frequently on foot, your wife almost certainly has been, and can likely tell you just how awful it is to be the target of them - ranging from disempowering to mortifying to terrifying.