5 ms·

I think people who can't understand the object difference should not then yell stuff to strangers on the street. I've managed to live 34 years without accidenta

I think people who can't understand the object difference should not then yell stuff to strangers on the street. I've managed to live 34 years without accidentally harassing anyone (that I know of). People who think they are going to have a problem with that should not yell stuff to strangers..at least not in france.

maym86 8y ago
Exactly. I always get confused when people say they have trouble understanding the line. It's really pretty easy to not harras other people.
- jeena 8y ago
  How do you know that you didn't cross the line? Perhaps those people just didn't want to pick a fight with you there and then?
  - maym86 8y ago
    I've never yelled sexual comments at people in the street? Have you?
  - squiggleblaz 8y ago
    Well let's say you're authentically ignorant of the fact that bringing sex up with strangers is usually considered offensive. The first you learn of it is when the cops come up and interview you. You indicate ignorance and also that you think the woman was a shit for dobbing you in. You indicate ignorance and also deep remorse - you're genuinely hurt that you harassed this woman and potentially several others. You indicate ignorance and feign deep remorse - you actually think the woman was a shit. You bring up sex with strangers again and the police see that you have form. There's a difference in what's going to happen in these cases. The fact that the police think it's worth investigating a report of a crime doesn't mean they'll react in the same manner to different circumstances.
egeozcan 8y ago
> without accidentally harassing anyone (that I know of) Wasn't this always the biggest problem: People not knowing. I also didn't get any problems and I'm close to your age - but I listened to a lot of stories from my wife in which people were doing things that may be considered offensive or even harassment, and without knowing.
- maym86 8y ago
  No the biggest problem is men actively harrasing women because they can easily get away with it. Ask any woman you know about their experiences some time.
  - egeozcan 8y ago
    Yeah, I updated my comment before seeing yours, and it now touches that subject as well. She is usually sure that the offending person doesn't know what they are doing.
    - maym86 8y ago
      If you are accidentaly doing something wrong and you find out you will hopefully apologise and change your behavior. All the big metoo cases, for example, are not people who didn't know. They are people who were activly predatory over many years. The accidents aren't what are being targeted here. It's mostly men activley and knowingly abusing the fact that they can get away with it.
mamurphy 8y ago
>that I know of That's the key to your comment. You cannot ever know for certain if your conduct offends someone. Some people get offended if you look at them the "wrong" way. I don't think you should be fined for accidentally offending someone.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
The article also includes fines for behavior that is "offensive" -- and you've certainly offended plenty of people in those 34 years, often without ever realizing it. There's a more general problem here as well. What's the difference between porn and art? I mean I'm sure if I show you two things you could probably tell me which is which. But when you try to encode this into law it is incredibly difficult. In more puritanical times various states tried to effect bans on "obscenity" however they struggled to avoid encompassing things that were not "obscene." This is one of the biggest reasons that restrictions on speech, let alone ones that seem to be so vague, are so very dangerous. They can be used, and abused, to great effect whereas their net positive effect is perhaps harder to gauge. In the US we do not have many laws that are so open to social interpretation, but with those that we do, we already see regular lawsuits well outside the spirit of the law that individuals hope to win by force of legal and persuasive prowess alone. Even if France might have a more mature legal culture, who's to say such things will not change? This is why I think when looking at laws, we should not see things through the most positive and optimistic lens, but through the most critical and cynical lens. The reason is because that lowest common denominator is shown, time and again, to end up being what the law will be disproportionately used for.
throwaway235458 8y ago
Well, if you read some of the replies to my comment, there is one that reality argues that greeting a women is harassment. I never thought it is, so I guess I should stop talking to people in public?

maym86 8y ago

Exactly. I always get confused when people say they have trouble understanding the line. It's really pretty easy to not harras other people.

jeena 8y ago
How do you know that you didn't cross the line? Perhaps those people just didn't want to pick a fight with you there and then?
- maym86 8y ago
  I've never yelled sexual comments at people in the street? Have you?
- squiggleblaz 8y ago
  Well let's say you're authentically ignorant of the fact that bringing sex up with strangers is usually considered offensive. The first you learn of it is when the cops come up and interview you. You indicate ignorance and also that you think the woman was a shit for dobbing you in. You indicate ignorance and also deep remorse - you're genuinely hurt that you harassed this woman and potentially several others. You indicate ignorance and feign deep remorse - you actually think the woman was a shit. You bring up sex with strangers again and the police see that you have form. There's a difference in what's going to happen in these cases. The fact that the police think it's worth investigating a report of a crime doesn't mean they'll react in the same manner to different circumstances.

egeozcan 8y ago

> without accidentally harassing anyone (that I know of) Wasn't this always the biggest problem: People not knowing. I also didn't get any problems and I'm close to your age - but I listened to a lot of stories from my wife in which people were doing things that may be considered offensive or even harassment, and without knowing.

maym86 8y ago
No the biggest problem is men actively harrasing women because they can easily get away with it. Ask any woman you know about their experiences some time.
- egeozcan 8y ago
  Yeah, I updated my comment before seeing yours, and it now touches that subject as well. She is usually sure that the offending person doesn't know what they are doing.
  - maym86 8y ago
    If you are accidentaly doing something wrong and you find out you will hopefully apologise and change your behavior. All the big metoo cases, for example, are not people who didn't know. They are people who were activly predatory over many years. The accidents aren't what are being targeted here. It's mostly men activley and knowingly abusing the fact that they can get away with it.

mamurphy 8y ago

>that I know of That's the key to your comment. You cannot ever know for certain if your conduct offends someone. Some people get offended if you look at them the "wrong" way. I don't think you should be fined for accidentally offending someone.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

The article also includes fines for behavior that is "offensive" -- and you've certainly offended plenty of people in those 34 years, often without ever realizing it. There's a more general problem here as well. What's the difference between porn and art? I mean I'm sure if I show you two things you could probably tell me which is which. But when you try to encode this into law it is incredibly difficult. In more puritanical times various states tried to effect bans on "obscenity" however they struggled to avoid encompassing things that were not "obscene." This is one of the biggest reasons that restrictions on speech, let alone ones that seem to be so vague, are so very dangerous. They can be used, and abused, to great effect whereas their net positive effect is perhaps harder to gauge. In the US we do not have many laws that are so open to social interpretation, but with those that we do, we already see regular lawsuits well outside the spirit of the law that individuals hope to win by force of legal and persuasive prowess alone. Even if France might have a more mature legal culture, who's to say such things will not change? This is why I think when looking at laws, we should not see things through the most positive and optimistic lens, but through the most critical and cynical lens. The reason is because that lowest common denominator is shown, time and again, to end up being what the law will be disproportionately used for.

throwaway235458 8y ago

Well, if you read some of the replies to my comment, there is one that reality argues that greeting a women is harassment. I never thought it is, so I guess I should stop talking to people in public?