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> Catcalling [...] If you greet someone and smile You understand that these are different things. You understand that they can legally be treated as different

> Catcalling [...] If you greet someone and smile You understand that these are different things. You understand that they can legally be treated as different things. Well done. [Edit: For whatever it's worth, I think the parent comment was mistaken but not worthy of being flagged.]

mamurphy 8y ago
"Hey, how are you doing this fine evening, stranger?" Is that criminal harassment now in France? Or is it just greeting someone? Does it depend on if they are offended or not?
- r00fus 8y ago
  France doesn't have a purely jurisprudential system. Jurors have lots of leeway in passing judgements that aren't tightly bound by previous judgements. I'm pretty sure your example be rightly called as non-harassing ( unless you're not sharing additional context)
- matthewmacleod 8y ago
  Is that criminal harassment now in France? No. Laws do not work that way.
- dang 8y ago
  You made the point once, and it was marginal to begin with. Now by repeating it several times, you're derailing this thread. Please stop. It was marginal to begin with because of the following site guideline: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." That applies to stories as well as comments. Since there's no reason to assume that the colloquial use of the English word "offensive" is the same as whatever legal term the French law invokes, the point is vapid and basically concern trolling. I think we can expect better from an HN discussion. Applying the site guideline I just quoted, one can foster a higher-quality discussion by assuming that the law writers are not completely stupid. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
throwaway235458 8y ago
Can you describe the difference in objective terms?
- joelbluminator 8y ago
  I think people who can't understand the object difference should not then yell stuff to strangers on the street. I've managed to live 34 years without accidentally harassing anyone (that I know of). People who think they are going to have a problem with that should not yell stuff to strangers..at least not in france.
  - maym86 8y ago
    Exactly. I always get confused when people say they have trouble understanding the line. It's really pretty easy to not harras other people.
    - jeena 8y ago
      How do you know that you didn't cross the line? Perhaps those people just didn't want to pick a fight with you there and then?
      - maym86 8y ago
        I've never yelled sexual comments at people in the street? Have you?
      - squiggleblaz 8y ago
        Well let's say you're authentically ignorant of the fact that bringing sex up with strangers is usually considered offensive. The first you learn of it is when the cops come up and interview you. You indicate ignorance and also that you think the woman was a shit for dobbing you in. You indicate ignorance and also deep remorse - you're genuinely hurt that you harassed this woman and potentially several others. You indicate ignorance and feign deep remorse - you actually think the woman was a shit. You bring up sex with strangers again and the police see that you have form. There's a difference in what's going to happen in these cases. The fact that the police think it's worth investigating a report of a crime doesn't mean they'll react in the same manner to different circumstances.
egeozcan 8y ago
In Frankfurt (Germany) some random, well-dressed woman approached my wife on the street (when I was just next to her, maybe I should stand even more close to her haha), took her hand, and told her that she is beautiful and she'd like to get her a drink. My wife laughed and jokingly told her that it was too late, while showing her ring. Meanwhile I was grinning like a child. She said she was sorry to bother us, and walked away. I wonder how we would react if the person were a man, and weren't that presentable. It's very, very hard to say when it becomes offending/harassment. There being clear cases like the linked video in the article, doesn't change this. I'm not saying that that guy in the video should get away with it just because we keep bike-shedding about where the line is, but it is something we need to think about as well.
- tom_mellior 8y ago
  The question doesn't come up if you just don't walk up to random strangers on the street and make comments. Sure, sometimes it might work out fine for both parties. In almost all cases it doesn't. If that woman feared retribution due to harassment laws, and she wouldn't have approached your wife, then the world now would be poorer by one anecdote, but at the same time much safer and more welcoming to billions of women. It's not a hard choice at all.
  - egeozcan 8y ago
    I value your opinion, but I have one worry: Keep removing "anecdotes" one-by-one, and, in the end, maybe we'd be living in Orwell's 1984?
    - tom_mellior 8y ago
      No.
- squiggleblaz 8y ago
  So someone behaves questionably. That's not a defence against another person behaving questionably. Anyway it's generally understood that there's differences in the appropriate behavior of men and women. For instance, it's okay for me to come up and piss next to a guy who's pissing but probably not okay for me to come up and piss next to a woman who's pissing. So even if her behavior was accepted as reasonable however odd it was, it's not proof that every guy doing that would also be accepted as reasonable. You're not responsible for the behavior of other people, but you do have to take into account other people's behavior (to the extent it's known to you) and your own past behavior, when you're deciding how you should interact with other people. These aren't new ideas. They're the basic principles of manners that have always been part of our society. Criticise pushing them into law as much as you want: but don't act like they're coming out of nowhere and impossible to comply with or enforce.

mamurphy 8y ago

"Hey, how are you doing this fine evening, stranger?" Is that criminal harassment now in France? Or is it just greeting someone? Does it depend on if they are offended or not?

r00fus 8y ago
France doesn't have a purely jurisprudential system. Jurors have lots of leeway in passing judgements that aren't tightly bound by previous judgements. I'm pretty sure your example be rightly called as non-harassing ( unless you're not sharing additional context)
matthewmacleod 8y ago
Is that criminal harassment now in France? No. Laws do not work that way.
dang 8y ago
You made the point once, and it was marginal to begin with. Now by repeating it several times, you're derailing this thread. Please stop. It was marginal to begin with because of the following site guideline: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." That applies to stories as well as comments. Since there's no reason to assume that the colloquial use of the English word "offensive" is the same as whatever legal term the French law invokes, the point is vapid and basically concern trolling. I think we can expect better from an HN discussion. Applying the site guideline I just quoted, one can foster a higher-quality discussion by assuming that the law writers are not completely stupid. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

throwaway235458 8y ago

Can you describe the difference in objective terms?

joelbluminator 8y ago
I think people who can't understand the object difference should not then yell stuff to strangers on the street. I've managed to live 34 years without accidentally harassing anyone (that I know of). People who think they are going to have a problem with that should not yell stuff to strangers..at least not in france.
- maym86 8y ago
  Exactly. I always get confused when people say they have trouble understanding the line. It's really pretty easy to not harras other people.
  - jeena 8y ago
    How do you know that you didn't cross the line? Perhaps those people just didn't want to pick a fight with you there and then?
    - maym86 8y ago
      I've never yelled sexual comments at people in the street? Have you?
    - squiggleblaz 8y ago
      Well let's say you're authentically ignorant of the fact that bringing sex up with strangers is usually considered offensive. The first you learn of it is when the cops come up and interview you. You indicate ignorance and also that you think the woman was a shit for dobbing you in. You indicate ignorance and also deep remorse - you're genuinely hurt that you harassed this woman and potentially several others. You indicate ignorance and feign deep remorse - you actually think the woman was a shit. You bring up sex with strangers again and the police see that you have form. There's a difference in what's going to happen in these cases. The fact that the police think it's worth investigating a report of a crime doesn't mean they'll react in the same manner to different circumstances.

egeozcan 8y ago

In Frankfurt (Germany) some random, well-dressed woman approached my wife on the street (when I was just next to her, maybe I should stand even more close to her haha), took her hand, and told her that she is beautiful and she'd like to get her a drink. My wife laughed and jokingly told her that it was too late, while showing her ring. Meanwhile I was grinning like a child. She said she was sorry to bother us, and walked away. I wonder how we would react if the person were a man, and weren't that presentable. It's very, very hard to say when it becomes offending/harassment. There being clear cases like the linked video in the article, doesn't change this. I'm not saying that that guy in the video should get away with it just because we keep bike-shedding about where the line is, but it is something we need to think about as well.

tom_mellior 8y ago
The question doesn't come up if you just don't walk up to random strangers on the street and make comments. Sure, sometimes it might work out fine for both parties. In almost all cases it doesn't. If that woman feared retribution due to harassment laws, and she wouldn't have approached your wife, then the world now would be poorer by one anecdote, but at the same time much safer and more welcoming to billions of women. It's not a hard choice at all.
- egeozcan 8y ago
  I value your opinion, but I have one worry: Keep removing "anecdotes" one-by-one, and, in the end, maybe we'd be living in Orwell's 1984?
  - tom_mellior 8y ago
    No.
squiggleblaz 8y ago
So someone behaves questionably. That's not a defence against another person behaving questionably. Anyway it's generally understood that there's differences in the appropriate behavior of men and women. For instance, it's okay for me to come up and piss next to a guy who's pissing but probably not okay for me to come up and piss next to a woman who's pissing. So even if her behavior was accepted as reasonable however odd it was, it's not proof that every guy doing that would also be accepted as reasonable. You're not responsible for the behavior of other people, but you do have to take into account other people's behavior (to the extent it's known to you) and your own past behavior, when you're deciding how you should interact with other people. These aren't new ideas. They're the basic principles of manners that have always been part of our society. Criticise pushing them into law as much as you want: but don't act like they're coming out of nowhere and impossible to comply with or enforce.